JackFlashJonny wrote:Croft a good ball carrier? He is good in the wide channels and a great player but don't think I have ever heard anyone say he is a ball carrying 6..Williams perhaps..but Croft?
TB have you been hitting the whiskey? Do you honestly think Vunipola, Hughes, Picamoles or Faletau would be a step down...?
I don't drink Whiskey, but I do drink Malt Whisky, the "e" makes more difference than you would believe lol.
Croft does like goal hanging, but is also a good carrier, we've just not seen much of him for a while. The 4 you list will all miss large parts of the season away, I think Vunipola is overrated, certainly in an England shirt, Picamoles is getting to the end of his use by date, Toby is still half decent and Hughes might make it, but prefer what we have.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
JackFlashJonny wrote:Croft a good ball carrier? He is good in the wide channels and a great player but don't think I have ever heard anyone say he is a ball carrying 6..Williams perhaps..but Croft?
TB have you been hitting the whiskey? Do you honestly think Vunipola, Hughes, Picamoles or Faletau would be a step down...?
I don't drink Whiskey, but I do drink Malt Whisky, the "e" makes more difference than you would believe lol.
Croft does like goal hanging, but is also a good carrier, we've just not seen much of him for a while. The 4 you list will all miss large parts of the season away, I think Vunipola is overrated, certainly in an England shirt, Picamoles is getting to the end of his use by date, Toby is still half decent and Hughes might make it, but prefer what we have.
If you genuinely believe what you have written, there isn't much point in discussing this any further.....
Picamoles is 29. Vunipola dominates games. Hughes might make it?! Have you seen how many games he has dominated this year?
Also you do realise rugby is a contact sport? Croft never wins the gainline when he carries in close traffic. Leicester need a close to the ruck gainline buster to generate momentum
I bow to no-one in my admiration of Tom Croft and he has many skills at the highest level - but as a ball carrier at close quarters he is nowhere . I would also say that ballcarrying is not a strength of Kitchenor either . Of the forwards mentioned only Mike Williams , Mulipola and Slater fit the bill .
darganj wrote:Leicester need a gainline buster to generate momentum
I think we have at least three : Manu , Fonua and Mulipola. We just haven't seen much of any of them yet due to injury.
When I saw Fonua play for Tonga his ball retention in contact wasn't great & when he's played for Tigers his ability to control the ball in scrums likewise. Imo.
Fonua didn't look good in the 20 mins or so he made off the bench. Yes he has lost some weight but needs to lose more, he was slow lumbering and had no penetration from standing starts. He broke his arm again so maybe he was not ready and trying to protect his previous injury.
tigerburnie wrote:I don't drink Whiskey, but I do drink Malt Whisky, the "e" makes more difference than you would believe lol.
Croft does like goal hanging, but is also a good carrier, we've just not seen much of him for a while. The 4 you list will all miss large parts of the season away, I think Vunipola is overrated, certainly in an England shirt, Picamoles is getting to the end of his use by date, Toby is still half decent and Hughes might make it, but prefer what we have.
If you genuinely believe what you have written, there isn't much point in discussing this any further.....
Picamoles is 29. Vunipola dominates games. Hughes might make it?! Have you seen how many games he has dominated this year?
Also you do realise rugby is a contact sport? Croft never wins the gainline when he carries in close traffic. Leicester need a close to the ruck gainline buster to generate momentum
Down to interpretation of what a ball carrier is, someone like who who breaks one tackle to get over the gain line close to a ruck is not what I call a ball carrier, that is a rugby player doing their job. A ball carrying forward for me can also step and pass out of contact, something Vunipola rarely does, Picamoles does on occasion, Crane has done in the past and Parrise does most times he has the ball.
I was fortunate to have witnessed some of the greatest 8's to have played the game and none of these lumps you mention come close to the skills of a ball carrying Andy Ripley or even the big lumps like the senior Quinnell(his lads were pants by comparison),Merv Davies or even our own Deano.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
TB you cannot compare players from a different era of amateur rugby...there is no comparison..
How stepping and passing has anything to do with ball carrying I do not know.. ..We are talking about players with the physical capability like Manu and Mulipola to break tackles and win the collision..
You need these lumps in the modern game and Croft whilst brilliant and one of my favourite ever players is not one of them
I think some of you are talking about two separate things.
If you are talking about ball carrying, then by definition that is anyone who carries the ball. Our best in that respect is probably Vaianu.
That is different from a player who can make yards by breaking tackles ie Manu or Logo. We probably don't have too many of those, as other posters have pointed out. But remember Aus got to the WC final playing two sevens, and having huge forwards making a few yards (because that is what it is) is not much use if they don't offload it, or indeed get the ball in the first place.
RagingBull wrote:
Would like to see Milne brought up as well.
Agreed. He looked a great prospect a couple of years ago (deserved MOM in an LV game). Not really heard much since.
I recall he was not huge but very mobile. Should suit the new Mauger way of playing
Should we not be moving away from a focus on how individual players contribute to specific aspects of the game (moreover, those aspects 'traditionally/conventionally' associated with a particular number on the back of a shirt)? I think we would be better looking at the team's overall capacity for 'ball carrying' rather than having specific 'ball carriers' - the same goes for 'slick off-loading' rather than 'off-loaders', 'spatially-aware tackling' not 'big hitters'.
The very best teams (OK, let's be honest, the very best Southern Hemisphere teams) expect every member of the team to possess pretty much every attribute*. Kieran Read would walk into any side in the NH purely based on his ball carrying ability. However, he would not get close to selection for the ABs if that was all he could do; AB No 8s, 2nd row, even props are expected to not just 'push and grunt', but to have soft hands and preferably a side-step as well!
The ABs, of course, are on another planet when it comes to technical ability - but with Aaron Mauger in post I can see signs that Tigers are looking to develop a mind-set which goes beyond the 'one or two attributes per shirt number ethos' - and aspires to a 'total rugby' one instead.
*I could probably live with props who were exempt from learning how to kick....!
I think we should give Lawrence Pearce an extended run at No.8 I'm sure he will step into the shoes vacated by Waldrom. As for McCaffrey I agree with others that he is better at 7 and hopefully when he is fit again Brendan O'Connor at 6 and when his thumb heals Slater to renew his pairing with Kitch. I think when we get all our international front rowers back, i.e. Ayerza, Youngs and Cole then that would be some pack.
I think we should give Lawrence Pearce an extended run at No.8 I'm sure he will step into the shoes vacated by Waldrom. As for McCaffrey I agree with others that he is better at 7 and hopefully when he is fit again Brendan O'Connor at 6 and when his thumb heals Slater to renew his pairing with Kitch. I think when we get all our international front rowers back, i.e. Ayerza, Youngs and Cole then that would be some pack.
He is good in the wide channels and a great player but don't think I have ever heard anyone say he is a ball carrying 6..Williams perhaps..but Croft?
Do you honestly think Vunipola, Hughes, Picamoles or Faletau would be a step down...?
