Cockerill's message to us

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WiggoTiger
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by WiggoTiger » Mon May 25, 2015 9:05 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:As ever I shall KEEP THE FAITH!!

Best of luck Mr, Mauger, Sir!
+1
A TIGER TILL I DIE!!
Supporting since 1977 and proud of it!!

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by bc » Mon May 25, 2015 11:37 pm

The Boy Dave wrote:
The main issue with injuries starts pre-season with a ridiculous training structure based around smashing the ball up the pitch. This has culminated in the past 2 seasons of an unprecedented amount of serious injuries the players carry before the season has even started. That has been Cockerill's game plan which has failed against quality sides who put their first teams out, proven perfectly true by Bath who just sat and watched Tigers get more and more exhausted trundling up the pitch until it was turnover time, when they then let the ball do the work to score 7 tries in 8 visits to our 22.

That combined with Cockerill's appalling man management, proven by star players leaving who don't want to, and sacking McCarthy, Burke and other coaches/staff because they contradicted Cockerill's blinkered game plan and poor management skills, all makes for a man that has detiorated the clubs playing infrastructure, along with one or two key members of the board who sell his approach back to the board.

I have total admiration and respect for each and every player giving everything they have to squeeze us into the semis. If Cockerill as DoR carries on and overrides the new Head Coaches philosophies and playing style then that is all we are ever going to achieve.

And don't be conned by those tears after the Wasps game, that was relief from having his neck on the block, and justly so.
But then what was so poor about the style of play and gameplan that was responsible for taking Wasps apart?
What was so brilliant about an academy graduate in Catchpole yesterday at Bath, he had another chance and when attempted to goose step similar to Rokoduguni etc nothing happened?
I've heard Cockerill get loads of stick for not pushing the likes of Price or Wells recently but have any of them done anything even coming close to what I saw Itoje do for Sarries against Saints yesterday or what Slade has done at Exeter?
When they are really good like Manu or Ford then Cockerill does indeed put faith in them and play them!
Totally agree with the views expressed by Norfolk & Goode who contributed to the first part of this quote.

I would suggest to The Boy Dave that, as DOR, it is absolutely Cockerill's responsibility to set the strategy for the academy. Its no good him bemoaning that he has not got the strength in depth when he has ultimate responsibility. Look at some of Northampton's academy boys last week and Saracens last season - they gave us a close run games.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Noddy555 » Tue May 26, 2015 11:09 am

Something has to happen next season as Cockers has run out of excuses,
perhaps when Mauger arrives he will take more of a back seat and concentrate on a forwards coaching role.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by The Boy Dave » Tue May 26, 2015 12:39 pm

bc
Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 10:37 pm

Re: Cockerill's message to us

The Boy Dave wrote:

Quote:
The main issue with injuries starts pre-season with a ridiculous training structure based around smashing the ball up the pitch. This has culminated in the past 2 seasons of an unprecedented amount of serious injuries the players carry before the season has even started. That has been Cockerill's game plan which has failed against quality sides who put their first teams out, proven perfectly true by Bath who just sat and watched Tigers get more and more exhausted trundling up the pitch until it was turnover time, when they then let the ball do the work to score 7 tries in 8 visits to our 22.

That combined with Cockerill's appalling man management, proven by star players leaving who don't want to, and sacking McCarthy, Burke and other coaches/staff because they contradicted Cockerill's blinkered game plan and poor management skills, all makes for a man that has detiorated the clubs playing infrastructure, along with one or two key members of the board who sell his approach back to the board.

I have total admiration and respect for each and every player giving everything they have to squeeze us into the semis. If Cockerill as DoR carries on and overrides the new Head Coaches philosophies and playing style then that is all we are ever going to achieve.

And don't be conned by those tears after the Wasps game, that was relief from having his neck on the block, and justly so.




But then what was so poor about the style of play and gameplan that was responsible for taking Wasps apart?
What was so brilliant about an academy graduate in Catchpole yesterday at Bath, he had another chance and when attempted to goose step similar to Rokoduguni etc nothing happened?
I've heard Cockerill get loads of stick for not pushing the likes of Price or Wells recently but have any of them done anything even coming close to what I saw Itoje do for Sarries against Saints yesterday or what Slade has done at Exeter?
When they are really good like Manu or Ford then Cockerill does indeed put faith in them and play them!




Totally agree with the views expressed by Norfolk & Goode who contributed to the first part of this quote.

I would suggest to The Boy Dave that, as DOR, it is absolutely Cockerill's responsibility to set the strategy for the academy. Its no good him bemoaning that he has not got the strength in depth when he has ultimate responsibility. Look at some of Northampton's academy boys last week and Saracens last season - they gave us a close run games.
I don't know what you expect of the DoR to be honest, he can't do it all.
We have suffered a high number of injuries, he dipped into resources from development and they didn't step up, remember some A league hammerings were suffered so great care was needed.
At the same time we see the like of Itoje, Slade, Cowan-Dickie, Launchbury, Wade etc etc seize their opportunity when needed at other clubs, and these young players were thrown in under great pressure and not weaned like a baby off a dummy as some often suggest is the way.
The Saints did alright last week but they still got turned over by a club with a mountain of injuries to big players, and Wasps were torn apart previous to that so Leicester are well placed on the 1st team front IMO.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by trendylfj » Tue May 26, 2015 1:56 pm

Let me say from the start, I was not at the Bath game due to the fact that she who must be obeyed kidnapped me and took me to mexico but I was able to watch it on my computer. For me, the inescapable fact is that their 3/4's attacked as a unit whereas ours attacked as individuals. Most comments on here regarding RC are spot on. He is an honest man who now must release his control on the tactics and training methods of our 3/4ers and let Mauger have his head. I understand that there has been a lot of communication between them regarding players both current and future signings but I do hope that Mauger's will has prevailed. I don't want to see RC go but if he cannot let go of the reins that go he must. He is a Tiger through and through who did really well to get us to the playoffs and needs credit for doing that but a top class coach would have found a way to combat Bath's diamond shape which we didn't do. If this shape is so good then no harm in having this as one of our weapons too if we have the players who can do it.
And that in the words of our director of rugby is "it is what it is and we have what we have".
Hehehehehehehehe

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by 4071 » Tue May 26, 2015 2:41 pm

Hot_Charlie wrote:
biffer wrote:My worry is he talks about not having enough firepower to break down Bath. In my opinion it's about not having enough guile.
That may have come with the ability to field a centre pairing who played a total of more than about 90minutes together before the Bath match. Tough in attack, leading to a slightly disjointed effort, probably even tougher to develop a defensive understanding.
Given that Loamanu and Tait have both been available to play for the last couple of months, whose fault is it that they only played together for about 90 minutes?

Earlier in the season - last year in fact - our troubles at 13 were quite obvious. It was suggested by a fair few people on here that as we had a surfeit of back three players and a proven international-class 13 in Tait, we might try putting Tait at 13.

How did it take so long for the idea to occur to Cockerill?

It seemed to work pretty well, too - Tait played well for the last four matches. We got a bit of guile and pace in the midfield. Maybe we wouldn't have to be moaning about our unfamiliar backline if the resources we DID have fit and available were actually utilised.


Actually, for all the moaning about our constantly changing backline compared to Bath's settled backline, it might be worth noting that the backline that started for Tigers last week started 120 games between them this season. The backline that started for Bath started 131 games between them. Hardly a gulf - averaging 17.1 games per player for Tigers and 18.7 games per player for Bath. We did have a fairly consistent core of players available. But injuries and disruption are a handy excuse, so let's just stick to the script, eh?

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by 4071 » Tue May 26, 2015 2:59 pm

The Boy Dave wrote:
What was so brilliant about an academy graduate in Catchpole yesterday at Bath, he had another chance and when attempted to goose step similar to Rokoduguni etc nothing happened?
I've heard Cockerill get loads of stick for not pushing the likes of Price or Wells recently but have any of them done anything even coming close to what I saw Itoje do for Sarries against Saints yesterday or what Slade has done at Exeter?
When they are really good like Manu or Ford then Cockerill does indeed put faith in them and play them!
Or when they are really good like Lewington, who has been called up for England after scoring 12 tries for Irish this season? Uh, no... he only got 7 LV Cup matches in 3 seasons whilst at Tigers...

It's fine to claim that our young players aren't good enough because they haven't achieved what other academy players at other clubs have, but it completely misses the point that those graduates at other clubs are given a decent amount of game time to develop and prove themselves. And if they don't excel in every aspect of the game from their very first couple of appearances (say, if they try stepping an international-class player and don't pull it off) then they don't get written off - they get more games!

Price barely played for Tigers. Wells has barely played for Tigers and probably won't play much before leaving. Stevens, Steele and Lewington barely played for Tigers before going on to flourish at Irish. Purdy barely played for Tigers before going on to flourish at Gloucester. Ford left due to lack of game time (he simply did not start games when Flood was available, and he clearly believed - rightly as it turns out - that he needed to play in order to reach his potential).

The response of some Tiger fans to all this? To point at Manu Tuilagi, who came through 4 years ago, and insist that it's proof that Cockerill does develop players. And that if he doesn't pick academy players it's because they aren't good enough. Conveniently ignoring the players who have left and since proved his judgment to be seriously faulty.


Still, we can probably blame MOC - he's left, so it's okay to put the boot in to him. Just not allowed to criticize anyone at the club, because they can do no wrong. It's all external factors that are to blame, right?

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by G.K » Tue May 26, 2015 3:18 pm

....Earlier in the season - last year in fact - our troubles at 13 were quite obvious. It was suggested by a fair few people on here that as we had a surfeit of back three players and a proven international-class 13 in Tait, we might try putting Tait at 13.
I was suggesting this almost from when Tait arrived, obviously I know nothing about rugby though. Oh hang on he's now playing at 13?

Not only that but when fit Morris was playing at wing rather than full back, which also never made much sense to me. Oh hang on he's now playing at 15?
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by The Boy Dave » Tue May 26, 2015 3:18 pm

Or when they are really good like Lewington, who has been called up for England after scoring 12 tries for Irish this season? Uh, no... he only got 7 LV Cup matches in 3 seasons whilst at Tigers...

It's fine to claim that our young players aren't good enough because they haven't achieved what other academy players at other clubs have, but it completely misses the point that those graduates at other clubs are given a decent amount of game time to develop and prove themselves. And if they don't excel in every aspect of the game from their very first couple of appearances (say, if they try stepping an international-class player and don't pull it off) then they don't get written off - they get more games!

Price barely played for Tigers. Wells has barely played for Tigers and probably won't play much before leaving. Stevens, Steele and Lewington barely played for Tigers before going on to flourish at Irish. Purdy barely played for Tigers before going on to flourish at Gloucester. Ford left due to lack of game time (he simply did not start games when Flood was available, and he clearly believed - rightly as it turns out - that he needed to play in order to reach his potential).

The response of some Tiger fans to all this? To point at Manu Tuilagi, who came through 4 years ago, and insist that it's proof that Cockerill does develop players. And that if he doesn't pick academy players it's because they aren't good enough. Conveniently ignoring the players who have left and since proved his judgment to be seriously faulty.


Still, we can probably blame MOC - he's left, so it's okay to put the boot in to him. Just not allowed to criticize anyone at the club, because they can do no wrong. It's all external factors that are to blame, right?
Lewington has been called to play because the best players in that position are unavailable so don't get all high and mighty, 4071 you have strangely had this Lewington bee in your bonnet for years.
Ford left for more money, he was playing regularly at Leicester and Cockerill backed him even though he was finding the pressure of the Welford Road crowd difficult and wanted him to stay but obviously the temptation of being lorded at Bath was an opportunity many kid's would snap up, just very bad timing, this idea that Cockerill didn't rate him or play him is a complete myth.
Look around and see players like Itoje and Launchbury as examples, this is the level required, lets be honest Price or Wells as examples have not got anywhere near to the level of the likes of Itoje or Launchbury and showed no signs of that sort of high level potential, Leicester is a top club fighting to stay and compete that way and average just won't cut it, young players need to do more if they want it, simple as that.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by darganj » Tue May 26, 2015 3:52 pm

The Boy Dave wrote:
Or when they are really good like Lewington, who has been called up for England after scoring 12 tries for Irish this season? Uh, no... he only got 7 LV Cup matches in 3 seasons whilst at Tigers...

It's fine to claim that our young players aren't good enough because they haven't achieved what other academy players at other clubs have, but it completely misses the point that those graduates at other clubs are given a decent amount of game time to develop and prove themselves. And if they don't excel in every aspect of the game from their very first couple of appearances (say, if they try stepping an international-class player and don't pull it off) then they don't get written off - they get more games!

Price barely played for Tigers. Wells has barely played for Tigers and probably won't play much before leaving. Stevens, Steele and Lewington barely played for Tigers before going on to flourish at Irish. Purdy barely played for Tigers before going on to flourish at Gloucester. Ford left due to lack of game time (he simply did not start games when Flood was available, and he clearly believed - rightly as it turns out - that he needed to play in order to reach his potential).

The response of some Tiger fans to all this? To point at Manu Tuilagi, who came through 4 years ago, and insist that it's proof that Cockerill does develop players. And that if he doesn't pick academy players it's because they aren't good enough. Conveniently ignoring the players who have left and since proved his judgment to be seriously faulty.


Still, we can probably blame MOC - he's left, so it's okay to put the boot in to him. Just not allowed to criticize anyone at the club, because they can do no wrong. It's all external factors that are to blame, right?
Lewington has been called to play because the best players in that position are unavailable so don't get all high and mighty, 4071 you have strangely had this Lewington bee in your bonnet for years.
Ford left for more money, he was playing regularly at Leicester and Cockerill backed him even though he was finding the pressure of the Welford Road crowd difficult and wanted him to stay but obviously the temptation of being lorded at Bath was an opportunity many kid's would snap up, just very bad timing, this idea that Cockerill didn't rate him or play him is a complete myth.
Look around and see players like Itoje and Launchbury as examples, this is the level required, lets be honest Price or Wells as examples have not got anywhere near to the level of the likes of Itoje or Launchbury and showed no signs of that sort of high level potential, Leicester is a top club fighting to stay and compete that way and average just won't cut it, young players need to do more if they want it, simple as that.
Or is the problem that Leicester's strategy of consistently under paying young players doesnt work anymore as they can earn a decent salary elsewhere?

Young players only used to stay at Tigers as they knew when they finally made it into the team being an international wouldn't be far away. Those days are gone.

Should have kept Purdy and Lewington rather than Hamilton and Scully. Anyone who ever watched age grade rugby knew Ford was a gem, Leicester should have done more to keep him. Same as Twelvetrees.

Leicester needs to stop the obsession with limited but hard working players. Scully, Crane, Allen and Matt Smith spring to mind.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by sapajo » Tue May 26, 2015 4:00 pm

Totally off this track I started, but the Ford issue hangs around like a bad egg smell and clearly sticks in some folks throats. So please, I would love any Tigers supporters to explain precisely what Tigers could and should have offered Ford to stop him leaving us? I will stand back and await enlightenment in the hope of finally putting it to bed?
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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by The Boy Dave » Tue May 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Well it's have a go time isn't it for the knockers which brings out all the old tales that all stretch a bit taller over time!
Cheery chappy

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by 4071 » Tue May 26, 2015 6:22 pm

sapajo wrote:Totally off this track I started, but the Ford issue hangs around like a bad egg smell and clearly sticks in some folks throats. So please, I would love any Tigers supporters to explain precisely what Tigers could and should have offered Ford to stop him leaving us? I will stand back and await enlightenment in the hope of finally putting it to bed?
Starts at 10, even when Flood was available, and a long-term contract instead of a 1-year contract in his final season.

And a forward-thinking vision for the direction of the club, rather than a limited 'one game at a time' mentality.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Crumblies » Tue May 26, 2015 6:24 pm

sapajo wrote:Totally off this track I started, but the Ford issue hangs around like a bad egg smell and clearly sticks in some folks throats. So please, I would love any Tigers supporters to explain precisely what Tigers could and should have offered Ford to stop him leaving us? I will stand back and await enlightenment in the hope of finally putting it to bed?
And so it should. It's amazing how with time some on here completely rewrite history in their post claiming it to be accepted fact.

Now I wasn't completely familiar with everything that took place between RC & Ford jnr. But here is what I do know.

At the time Toby Flood was our first choice 10. Ford was only picked when Flood was injured or was on international duty. Richard Cockerill went on record as saying 'the shirt belonged to Flood and it was Fords job to take it off him' now of course to many this sounds great however first it was abundantly obvious to anyone (apart from RC) it seems that Fords potential was huge and his longevity vastly more than Floods. Particularly as Flood was already second or third in the pecking order behind Farrell. Next Ford was allowed to negotiate a one year contract to use Tigers as a further development process so that when he was playing it was behind a dominant pack.
Yes it was abundantly obvious to us all (and hopefully Cockerill) that Ford may well be waiting his moment before going home to Daddy, but the management of the situation was IMHO shambolic.

No matter how many times the Happy Clappers shout us down and want us to stop dragging these issues up, I for one will not.

The smell of unpleasaness surrounding other players remains E.g Thomas Waldrom I have always held the view that from the moment he declared his availability for England he fell out of favour with RC and that was the end of his Tigers career. Look at Jamie Gibson since he announced his departure.

To those who say as DoR Cockerill can't do everything I agree but the clue is in the job role people, Director to Direct that means you delegate to others to get the job done. If they can't hack it you take responsibility and do something about it.

JGriffin on here has villified MOC almost to the point of libel, and now justifies this by pointing to Leinster. But JG who was the staunchet supporter of MOC for almost 5 years. Who publicly said he was sorry to be losing him when he left?

RC probably takes home a 6 figure salary as DoR as such he has to take responsibility for all or almost everything even if he doesn't actually do it himself.

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Re: Cockerill's message to us

Post by Dave J » Tue May 26, 2015 7:05 pm

Starts at 10, even when Flood was available, and a long-term contract instead of a 1-year contract in his final season.

And a forward-thinking vision for the direction of the club, rather than a limited 'one game at a time' mentality.
Give me a break! How often have the anti-RC brigade shouted from the rooftops that it is a results driven business nowadays. Whether you like it or not Toby Flood was the better 10 at that time so he was rightly selected ahead of Ford when available.
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