Sarries record debt

[Jose]

I don't agree that the English game would suffer through the absence of sugar daddies and aggressive debt strategies. Many of Saracens top level English players have come from other English teams (Ashton, Strettle, Vunipola, Hodgson, etc) so the effect of Saracens in these cases is merely to contribute to wage inflation not to provide new/better players. Other Premiership clubs (Leicester, Northampton, Exeter, Harlequins, Gloucester) are operating more sustainable models not based on benefactor generosity, and absent Saracens' (and Bath's) sugar daddies and probable salary cap breaches would simply end up with more access to better players. The RFU decision to not pick foreign based players is largely effective in keeping the top 80 or so English players in England (plus the younger players in academy set ups and age group rugby) so then it's just a question of which club they choose to play for. Any breaches of the salary cap should be pursued aggressively.

Also, Saracens made it quite apparent when picking a ridiculously located undersized stadium that they have no interest in creating a sustainable business model. You'd think they'd have learnt from Wasps' experience in Wycombe, but no. Hence my view that unless we want football style approach to debt and sustainability (see Leeds United) to pervade, then the salary cap needs to stay and be enforced, with whatever consequences ensuing for those who choose to flout it.

[Noggs]

I don't agree that the English game would suffer through the absence of sugar daddies and aggressive debt strategies. Many of Saracens top level English players have come from other English teams (Ashton, Strettle, Vunipola, Hodgson, etc) so the effect of Saracens in these cases is merely to contribute to wage inflation not to provide new/better players. Other Premiership clubs (Leicester, Northampton, Exeter, Harlequins, Gloucester) are operating more sustainable models not based on benefactor generosity, and absent Saracens' (and Bath's) sugar daddies and probable salary cap breaches would simply end up with more access to better players. The RFU decision to not pick foreign based players is largely effective in keeping the top 80 or so English players in England (plus the younger players in academy set ups and age group rugby) so then it's just a question of which club they choose to play for. Any breaches of the salary cap should be pursued aggressively.

Also, Saracens made it quite apparent when picking a ridiculously located undersized stadium that they have no interest in creating a sustainable business model. You'd think they'd have learnt from Wasps' experience in Wycombe, but no. Hence my view that unless we want football style approach to debt and sustainability (see Leeds United) to pervade, then the salary cap needs to stay and be enforced, with whatever consequences ensuing for those who choose to flout it.

I have a lot of sympathy with this viewpoint. I don't object to money coming into the game by way of sugar daddies but I can't say I like it as it leaves the clubs in question very exposed to a sudden change of mind or fortune of the generous owner(s).

On the question of exceeding the salary cap it is nothing short of cheating and should be viewed as such with a heavy fine and points deducted to ensure that they not only don't win anything in the season in question but also don't qualify for top European competition for a minimum of one season.

We need to know sooner rather than later the results of current investigations and the report should be published in full, subject to any necessary confidentialities which may need to be upheld.

[tigercaspian]

Not sure I buy in to Sarries having the wrong location ??
At Allianz Park, they are only about 11 miles from their historical former base in Southgate, and about 12 miles from their previous home in Watford. Even Harborough to Welford Road is 16 miles !!
And they are the ONLY Prem side with a London postcode, Quins of course being in the southern bit of Middlesex.
If you are the only side with a London postcode, how can you not exploit that?

[Jose]

The 'ridiculously' was primarily referring to the undersized rather than the location. Nevertheless it is a pretty awful location to get to:

http://www.saracenssupporters.org/wordp ... upporters/

Anything on the outer fringes of London involving buses or shuttles buses (i.e. not within 5-10 mins walk of tube or station) is an absolute pain to get to, and you'd probably not want to try to get there by driving at the weekend with London traffic and limited (i.e. near zero) parking options. I live in East London within 10 mins walk of a tube station (probably about 12-15 miles from Allianz Park as the crow flies) and would not want to leave less than 75-90 minutes by public transport to make that journey on a weekend (about twice as long as you'd need to get from Harborough to Leicester, and that's excluding the sub 15 minute train option).

Hence they're in a very similar boat to Quins and it is actually quite easy not to exploit a London postcode when your ground is an absolute pain to get to for 95% of the capital's population.

[chipnchase]

The question is do we want to see a gold rush that will crash like we did when the game went pro losing clubs like Richmond, Orrell, London Scottish, West Hartlepool and Waterloo who either went bust or tumbled down the leagues thanks to major debts?

A club like Tigers have built from a solid business foundation that started back with Mr Crumbie and his vision back in the 1920s not by quick money from some quick financial backing.

Bath have got a sugar daddy but also have a very stable platform which is only being slowed from developing because of the issues they face redeveloping the rec. Northampton have built wisely as have Gloucester.

Obviously the argument the other way is teams like Exeter and Worcester who have built slowly and professionally but with initial cash injections.

[Noggs]

If clubs have to have a moneyed owner then it is important that their business model leads them in reasonably quick time to being self supporting which requires a strong supporter base and revenue stream.

Tigers have always had the former (in relative terms) and made a bold and inspired decision in developing the Goldsmiths stand using the £2m they had in the bank at the time. This gave us match day hospitality facilities second to none and expanded the business into utilising the facilities outside of match days for dinners; meetings; conferencing; etc. The rest is history so to speak.

The only way that Tigers plc is likely to be 'at risk' is if it were to suffer relegation and I believe the chances of that happening are slim to none (touch wood). Some of the other clubs have a good chance of creating sustainable business in a similar way and I suspect Wasps fit into this category as the Ricoh Stadium & Arena was already a profitable business when purchased. The ones at risk are those with large year on year losses and no easy way of stemming the loss.