Eng 28- SA 32

[G.K]

Three yellow cards in sixty appearances does not constitute a liability, particularly if the key part of your game is top class.

Matfield, Habana, and Burger have seventeen international yellow cards between them. Michael Hooper has received five international yellow cards in forty games. Our own legend Castro has received four international yellow cards.

Perspective please.

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. He's been unavailable for selection several times due to similar offences at Premiership level but apart from that it's also the nature of the offences for the cards he's received.

[Northeast Tiger]

There was nothing wrong with the two wingers yesterday. If they were passed to it would have helped.
It is not the fact Hartley and other International's get yellow carded, It is the amount of penalties Hartley gives away, He is a petulant nasty player. I think Young's would be picked in front of him if fit.

Our back row can compete but is not dynamic enough to win games, We need a Sam Harrison type scrum half who can ping a ball from the base of rucks and scrums and hit the second receiver if necessary.Danny two step Care is not the best passer but Youngs is not in the best form either.

I am not a Lancaster fan but we should not criticise him until he has a full complement of players to choose from. Burrell and Manu could possibly offer a better mix at Centre with Eastmond on the bench.
Wade at 10 for me.

[Sajerj]

Three yellow cards in sixty appearances does not constitute a liability, particularly if the key part of your game is top class.

Matfield, Habana, and Burger have seventeen international yellow cards between them. Michael Hooper has received five international yellow cards in forty games. Our own legend Castro has received four international yellow cards.

Perspective please.

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. He's been unavailable for selection several times due to similar offences at Premiership level but apart from that it's also the nature of the offences for the cards he's received.

Really ? In the six years since he was first cap when has Hartley missed an England game through suspension ? I don't think he ever has ?

[drc_007]

Three yellow cards in sixty appearances does not constitute a liability, particularly if the key part of your game is top class.

Matfield, Habana, and Burger have seventeen international yellow cards between them. Michael Hooper has received five international yellow cards in forty games. Our own legend Castro has received four international yellow cards.

Perspective please.

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. He's been unavailable for selection several times due to similar offences at Premiership level but apart from that it's also the nature of the offences for the cards he's received.

Really ? In the six years since he was first cap when has Hartley missed an England game through suspension ? I don't think he ever has ?

He did miss the Lions tour because of suspension.

[Northeast Tiger]

Three yellow cards in sixty appearances does not constitute a liability, particularly if the key part of your game is top class.

Matfield, Habana, and Burger have seventeen international yellow cards between them. Michael Hooper has received five international yellow cards in forty games. Our own legend Castro has received four international yellow cards.

Perspective please.

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. He's been unavailable for selection several times due to similar offences at Premiership level but apart from that it's also the nature of the offences for the cards he's received.

Really ? In the six years since he was first cap when has Hartley missed an England game through suspension ? I don't think he ever has ?

Hartley has also become infamous for his lack of control on the pitch and has been suspended from the game four times for acts of indiscipline. In April 2007 Hartley was banned for 26 weeks for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor. Hartley worked with sports psychiatrist Steve Peters. He was banned again in March 2012 for 8 weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match. Then in December 2012 he was banned for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match. In May 2013 Hartley was sent off in the Aviva Premiership final and banned for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official.This final act cost Hartley his place in the 2013 British and Irish Lions tour to Australia.

[Hot_Charlie]

Hard to criticise Watson and May yesterday with their lack of ball.

A lot of people will suggest Care was culpable for the first try. To anyone who can, watch the passage of play just before the intercept. The pass from Care to Farrell drops just behind the latter - what does he do? Dive on it? Secure the ball? No. He looks at Care and shakes his head, letting Eastmond tidy up then wallows back into position. Sadly of course from the ensuing ruck the ball from Care didn't get to him either.

Yeah, Farrell kicks good goals, but when the glowing praise for him during the match from Stuart Barnes was his joining of the two rolling mauls, you know something is wrong. Ford must start the last two tests of the series, alongside a proper outside centre.

Hartley - you don't point out the offending leg to the ref and then stamp on it 2 seconds later. Subtle. Nice one centurion...

Vunipola? Not convinced. Morgan offered a bit more dynamism. Didn't Andrew Sheridan start at No 8?

[Sajerj]

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. He's been unavailable for selection several times due to similar offences at Premiership level but apart from that it's also the nature of the offences for the cards he's received.[/quote]

Really ? In the six years since he was first cap when has Hartley missed an England game through suspension ? I don't think he ever has ?[/quote]

Hartley has also become infamous for his lack of control on the pitch and has been suspended from the game four times for acts of indiscipline. In April 2007 Hartley was banned for 26 weeks for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor. Hartley worked with sports psychiatrist Steve Peters. He was banned again in March 2012 for 8 weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match. Then in December 2012 he was banned for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match. In May 2013 Hartley was sent off in the Aviva Premiership final and banned for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official.This final act cost Hartley his place in the 2013 British and Irish Lions tour to Australia.[/quote]

But no missed England matches due to any suspensions ? Agree ?

Because that is the point of the discussion.

[G.K]

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. He's been unavailable for selection several times due to similar offences at Premiership level but apart from that it's also the nature of the offences for the cards he's received.

Really ? In the six years since he was first cap when has Hartley missed an England game through suspension ? I don't think he ever has ?

Hartley has also become infamous for his lack of control on the pitch and has been suspended from the game four times for acts of indiscipline. In April 2007 Hartley was banned for 26 weeks for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor. Hartley worked with sports psychiatrist Steve Peters. He was banned again in March 2012 for 8 weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match. Then in December 2012 he was banned for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match. In May 2013 Hartley was sent off in the Aviva Premiership final and banned for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official.This final act cost Hartley his place in the 2013 British and Irish Lions tour to Australia.

But no missed England matches due to any suspensions ? Agree ?

Because that is the point of the discussion.

No - the main point of the discussion was whether Hartley is a liability or not - I did not specifically mention him missing England selection, one could say he has been lucky with the timings of his offences in that regard. Are you a relative of his or something?

[Northeast Tiger]

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that. He's been unavailable for selection several times due to similar offences at Premiership level but apart from that it's also the nature of the offences for the cards he's received.

Really ? In the six years since he was first cap when has Hartley missed an England game through suspension ? I don't think he ever has ?[/quote]

Hartley has also become infamous for his lack of control on the pitch and has been suspended from the game four times for acts of indiscipline. In April 2007 Hartley was banned for 26 weeks for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor. Hartley worked with sports psychiatrist Steve Peters. He was banned again in March 2012 for 8 weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match. Then in December 2012 he was banned for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match. In May 2013 Hartley was sent off in the Aviva Premiership final and banned for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official.This final act cost Hartley his place in the 2013 British and Irish Lions tour to Australia.[/quote]

But no missed England matches due to any suspensions ? Agree ?

Because that is the point of the discussion.[/quote]

You maybe correct on that.If he floats your boat, fair enough. The point we are making is that he has missed games far bigger than England due to suspension.Correct ?
Let him stamp on your Knee and then eye gouge you. If you want to say thank you after he has done that, then that is your prerogative.

[TigerCam]

There was some criticism from Ian McGeechan about Danny Care's passing, side-stepping several paces before the pass. This must be an England thing as both Harry Ellis and Ben Youngs contracted the disease after being selected by England. Now Farrell was not around in the Harry Ellis day, but my thinking is that because Farrell is so slow in his decision making then the 9 (whoever it is) has to slow down the pass to accommodate the so-called England 10 actually being awake to the situation? As Ian says, Ford should have more than 10 minutes to show if he can actually handle test rugby (I firmly believe he will do, if he gets the same chances as OF). Ford should have had the shot at the NZs especially as OF had so little game time prior to the AIs? His (Ford) game time yesterday, while not perfect, did shift the impetus and get England going. Samoa will be easier in structure but more brutal in play, than yesterday and last week combined, so what better time to baptise a Ford/Myler/Cips combination?

[TomWeston]

Hartley - you don't point out the offending leg to the ref and then stamp on it 2 seconds later. Subtle. Nice one centurion...

I've no time at all for Tartley but he was hard done by. Walsh had warned the Saffas early on for pulling down the maul and lying on the wrong side and when they did it again and Walsh again did nothing, what should Hartley have done? An AB would have used both feet. Walsh was his usual anti-England self.

[Hot_Charlie]

Hartley - you don't point out the offending leg to the ref and then stamp on it 2 seconds later. Subtle. Nice one centurion...

I've no time at all for Tartley but he was hard done by. Walsh had warned the Saffas early on for pulling down the maul and lying on the wrong side and when they did it again and Walsh again did nothing, what should Hartley have done? An AB would have used both feet. Walsh was his usual anti-England self.

Yeah, but an AB would have ensured he made it look like he was walking over him, not aiming a single thrust at the other blokes knee.

[kingol22]

what should Hartley have done?

Maybe not marked his spot before stamping on him? He deserved a good shooing but Hartley deserved the card for pure stupidity if nothing else.

[jgriffin]

The vultures have taken to the air....as predicted. And a lose-lose scenario against Samoa won't help - win the game and the problems for Samoa will be cited as a reason, lose and the vultures will start pecking at the corpse.

http://tinyurl.com/kh2kqfm

[biffer]

Slancaster must condom this behavior ...

I'm not entirely sure what this means but it makes me nervous