I believe Gatland and Farrell senior have backed themselves into a corner. By choosing Sexton and OF as the only 10's the cannot call up Toby. If Toby had been called up then Owen Farrell would not even make the 23 as Toby is a better 10 and Farell is way behind players like BOD, MT JD and JR at centre.
If Sexton gets injured then Farrrell is a shoe-in at 10 and if he gets injured the either Hogg or 12T or Halfpenny will be make shift 10's.
I would love to have seen Flood with BOD at 12. I think they would have ripped the Aussies apart. I just hope Sexton does not get injured.
If I was Toby and AA I would announce retirement from International rugby and lead Tigers to dominance of the club game. But both are proud and unfussy men who will answer their countries call when things go wrong.
Of course this is my own opinion and other posters may have a different perceived factual viewpoint.
I agree with Matt O'Connor. Selection is subjective, of this there can be no doubt. I think the Lions MIGHT just about get away with it on this occasion as the Aussies are there for the taking with all the goings on in their camp but as far as England are concerned I feel a generation of real potential and a home world cup tournament could be wasted.
Last edited by The Boy Dave on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The commentary when the Lions squad was announced was that the Saracens pair of Stevens and Farrell were the obvious two selections that were wrong. And the tour to date has highlighted that that prediction was spot on.
In fact in Owen Farrell's case. I believe he has shown himself not only to be lacking in a talented Lions squad, but also that he is not good enough to play at test level at all. His 'skill' seems only to kick the ball from deep or dink it into the corner for the wingers to chase. When he came on against the Waratahs, he gave away so much good possession it was nearly criminal.
When selection is close, coaches always choose players they trust and players they have worked with before - they pick Shane Williams ahead of Strettle, Ashton, Varndell etc. ? Really?
No doubt that Floody has been a victim of that too and he is a way better player at this level that Farrell.
Agreed. It was hard to comprehend that Farrell got selected in front of Flood in the first place (did any of the selectors watch the Premiership this year?) and is even harder to comprehend that players including Twelvetrees and Barritt are now out there and that Flood still isn't. Gatland and the Lions are in serious trouble if Sexton (who is very deservedly the Lions fly half) gets injured, as they have precisely no plausible top level back up. Is surprising that a coach of Gatland's experience has left himself so monumentally exposed to the injury of one player when he didn't have to be.
I'm also annoyed that Ben Youngs hasn't been given a run out with Sexton at any stage. I think they'd work brilliantly together, and Phillips may be physical but he is spectacularly pedestrian at the base of the ruck, which could be much more brutally demonstrated in the tests.
Jose wrote:Is surprising that a coach of Gatland's experience has left himself so monumentally exposed to the injury of one player when he didn't have to be.
Couldn't agree more. There was a lot of talk about Wilkinson before the squad announcements were made and it was already clear that Priestland wasn't going to be fit, but why Farrell as the only back-up 10? He wasn't even selected as first choice 10 at his club in the AP semi.
Sexton first choice? Fine from what was available but Farrell as the only back-up? Never!
He had Flood, Hodgeson, Burns, Biggar, Goode, O'Gara, Jones, Robinson, Parks all at his disposal ...... yet he chose to select only Farrell. Poor choice IMO.
Last edited by bluntiger on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Look, I agree the omission of Flood or A.N.Other alternative fly-half is a bit baffling to say the least, and there's recognition of that in 36's call up IMHO.
However, I wonder whether this tour might actually do young Mr Farrell some good. By all accounts (including mine) he had a poor first game. Since then he has picked up more than somewhat - his kicking is still good, but his ability to release the line seems improved, he's playing flatter and isn't just the metronomic defensive percentage player of the caricature so commonly portrayed here. He's not the complete article, and IMHO not yet the player that our Toby is, but he is young, still learning and improving and might just get there and beyond....
And if so, where does that leave our Toby? With us, more often than not, and that's great by me!
[Note to mods, could we please have an emoticon for; puts on tin hat, and retires toward exit without daring to turn and face that direction?]
I disagree that Farrell has improved that much. Yes his first game was extremely poor but he still kicks away good possession way too often (especially when he came on against the Waratahs) and seems to me to be trying too hard.
However, Lions tours should never be a development programme (for Farrell jnr. or anyone else IMO) since they won't play together again for another 4 years and the squad will be radically different by then.
Bluntiger, I assume Williams was selected mainly because he was on the same time zone as Australia and had to fly straight into a match the next day.
Anyway back to Toby.
He has started 20 tests at fly half in the last 3 seasons for England. Thats plenty to nail down selection for a player of his experience and talent. The harsh truth is that England lost 10, drew one, and won only 9 of those 20 games he started at fly half.
tig1 wrote:He has started 20 tests at fly half in the last 3 seasons for England. Thats plenty to nail down selection for a player of his experience and talent. The harsh truth is that England lost 10, drew one, and won only 9 of those 20 games he started at fly half.
Not at all Tom. But it is a fact that Englands record with Toby as a starting 10 in the last 3 years is poor.
Farrell as a starting 10 is six from nine, and he is two from two starting as centre. And keep in mind that is at an extremely young age for an international 10.
I think Toby is a far better natural footballer than Farrell, but in the end its about what makes a winning team.
Flood is a good player but I'm not sure he's a good enough fly half to start for a test side that has ambitions of winning the world cup. His kicking out of hand isn't of the standard you would expect of a test fly half and he steadfastly refuses to go for drop goals.
He's also of an age where he's not going to make dramatic improvements.
Is Farrell the one? - personally I doubt it, and he's not as good as Flood, but he's young enough to improve.
I think Burns is the one England should be developing as he seems to have it all and a sound head on his shoulders too.
Given a year or two others, like George Ford may well throw their hat into the mix.
Flood is the better player, the problem is that England play poor rugby. Flood flourishes in a system where he is allowed to express himself. Yes England may win more with Fazlet in the 6 nations but England will never win the World Cup with Farrell at 10. England need to develop Burns or give Flood a chance to play with the knowledge that he is actually first choice and not a stopgap until another vunder kid comes along. Fazlet is at best an average player, nothing more. Burns on the other hand could and should be England's fly half for the next 5 years.
I agree Toby has been cruelly overlooked for this tour, he is currently a better running fly half than Farrell and certainly creates more space for others.
Farrell on the other hand is a better kicker from hand and is still very young so i won't bash him as others do, and IMO he has improved on tour already.
Nevertheless he should have been on tour as No. 3 fly half at best, because as others have pointed out this is not a development tour.
The fact OF is the first choice of England/Lancaster has obviously been a factor in his selection. My real gripe is that if we are down to Aus with 20 minutes to go and need a spark, is that man Farrell or Flood - well I think we all know the answer to that one!!
I also agree that Burns is England's long term fly half,but he needs to learn to manage a game consistently - otherwise he could become the Bares of his era, with Farrell being the Andrew, and we all know who won most caps.
I believe that Toby is the best English 10 if you take his overall game. I know results are damning, but they don't tell the full story.
I am a proud Englishman, who wants them to win, but am really concerned at the talent stifling mess that is the current coaching team. They obviously prefer the adherence to strict game plans, with individual skills and talent being wasted.
Bowden Tiger wrote:I believe that Toby is the best English 10 if you take his overall game. I know results are damning, but they don't tell the full story.
I am a proud Englishman, who wants them to win, but am really concerned at the talent stifling mess that is the current coaching team. They obviously prefer the adherence to strict game plans, with individual skills and talent being wasted.
Did you watch the England v Argentina game on Saturday night? There was a lot of talent not being stifled and playing what was in front of them, not sticking to a rigid game plan.
The talent coming through for England is really exciting - let's hope a few of them get picked when all are available for selection!
