HC Cup next season

[Smurphswillgetya]

not sure that you are typical,smurphs, as i wouldnt like to make such a sweeping generalisation about another teams fanbase.

think you are deluded though.

you might not like the credit saints get for winning the ecc, but thems the rules, laid out in advance so get over it.

but even if we are charitable and set that year aside (it will be discounted by this time next year, after all):

09/10 - saints are the only english side to get out of the group stage.
10/11 - saints lose to leinster in the final, so by definition went further than any other english side. indeed we left tigers behind two rounds before when you lost in the quarters.(there are more points in the ranking system for reaching a final than dropping out at the quarters)

11/12 - meh, sarries make it past us in getting out of the groups.

so for 2 of the last 3 years saints have demonstrably and quantifiably done better than tigers in europe. not sure where delusion comes in.

even in the longer term its 12 years since saints won the hc, 10 since tigers did, not a major difference on that scale.

saints have earned that tier 1 ranking (as i say elsewhere it remains to be seen how much of an advantage it is!)

& am willing to bet say £25 to the matt hampson fund here and now that saints will match or surpass the round tigers reach in europe next season. you in?

Good post. Boon you'll have to forgive Smurphs factual analysis and sound logical reasoning never seems to figure very high in his arguments, I keep trying to tell him.

I would expect nothing less from you Crumblies since you use facts when they suit you only. As far a certain moderator is concerned it is very factual to refer to Tigers fans as a lynch mob.

Any way back to the thread.
Fact 2008/09 Saints not in HC and Tigers make the final and lose
Fact 2009/10 Tigers out at group stage, Saints out at Q/F
Fact 2010/11 Tigers Q/F, Saints Final but lose
Fact 2011/12 Tigers out group stage with 17 points, Saints out group stage with 12 points. Only one team qualifies from Saints group who go out in QF, two teams qualify from Tigers group with one team making final and the other semifinal.
Summary Tigers played in last 4 HC, Saints in last 3
Tigers reached one final and one QF, Saints same
This season Tigers performed better.

So how have Saints been better than all English sides in the last 4 years? Facts or opinion!

[Smurphswillgetya]

Boon, Crumblies forgot to add something. As Tigerburnie has said on a thread on another forum a fool and his cash are easily parted so I will not bet on what's going to happen in the HC next season when we dont even know which teams will be in the groups. However if both of you are man enough to admit that over the last 4 seasons Tigers have done better than Saints in the HC then I will donate £25 to Matt Hampson fund.

[Crumblies]

Smurphs if you read my post properly you will see I never claimed Saints had done better in Europe than Tigers or vice versa. Merely that his response was a good reply to someone who had referred to him as 'dillusional'

What matters to me is that IMHO, and many others on this forum, we underperformed in the HC this year and have done now for several years.

Now I don't know what games you were watching, but this is my take on this year. We were 'tonked' by Ulster and Clermont away, we only just managed to scrape a win at home to Clermont whilst Ulster were unlucky not to get at least a bonus point at Welford Road, and our performance away to Aironi was poor to say the least.

On that basis I for one am not about to seek bragging rights over Saints.

On another thread the debate rages about the pros and cons of an Anglo - French proposal.

Last year I went to the HC final. To begin I had no real allegiance to either side. By the end I was totally for Saints and was convinced about the injustice of the present format. The previous week Saints had to play us in the AP semi final. The following week they had a HC final. Saints deservedly led at half time. By the middle of the Second half it was clear they simply had nothing more to give whilst Leinster were still relatively fresh. Would Saints have held on if they had the same benefits, impossible to say, but the fact that they didn't have them in my view is wrong very wrong.

I don't think its necessarily an advantage to be in Tier one this year, when you look at tier two.

Saints must draw Clermont, Ulster, Stade or Toulon. Whereas we stand a chance of getting Biarritz or Cardiff. I am pretty sure this is the point Boon was trying to make in his post.

With regard to the bet. I am not a betting man, my gambling is limited to a weekly £1.00 on the lottery and an annual flutter on the Grand National, in which I usually back four horses in an attempt to ensure I at least get my money back.

This bet has been done for one reason only, to guarantee money is raised for Matt Hampsons trust. The fact that the draw is still to be made doesn't bother me. If I have to pay up then I will happily do so, congratulate Boon and wish him and Saints well for the remainder of the competition. I have this strange feeling if the positions are reversed he will do the same.

You and others are most welcome to donate your £25 to Hambos trust if you wish.

[Smurphswillgetya]

Well done Crumblies a true politicians answer.

[Bill W (2)]

What matters to me is that IMHO, and many others on this forum, we underperformed in the HC this year and have done now for several years.

.

I concur.

Which is why, elsewhere, I have suggested in his selection, squad rotation, game plan and subtirurion policies Cockers should now target the HC.

My suggestion fell upon deaf ears. I was told that Tigers (effectively) had no chance of competing against the French and Irish.

I disagree.

[Jay C]

I have suggested in his selection, squad rotation, game plan and subtitution policies Cockers should now target the HC.

My suggestion fell upon deaf ears. I was told that Tigers (effectively) had no chance of competing against the French and Irish.

I disagree.

I also disagree Bill. I think we have the squad to rotate players to ensure that our best XV is available for the HC games and still compete for top 2 in the league. I also thought we had a good enough squad to do it this year too, but the WC period put paid to that ! Hopefully the autumn internationals will not do the same !

On our day, we have a side to compete with any in the world ... so bring it on

[Bill W (2)]

On our day, we have a side to compete with any in the world ... so bring it on

Halleluyah brother!!

KEEP THE FAITH!

[Crumblies]

On our day, we have a side to compete with any in the world ... so bring it on

You better beleive it!!

[GEH]

...all this debate about qualification supports the English & French contention that the top 8 sides from the three leagues should qualify. Byu the way can anyone tell me the last time we were not in the top tier?

[Nailsworthstiger]

...all this debate about qualification supports the English & French contention that the top 8 sides from the three leagues should qualify. Byu the way can anyone tell me the last time we were not in the top tier?

2007-2008 season when Wasps were top seeds.

[JohnI]

And it dosent get any better because IF Tigers have another disasterous year in Europe then by removing the 2008/09 ponts the current positions would move Tigers from their current 9th ranking position to 15th position

1 Leinster Rugby 29
2 Toulouse 23
3 Biarritz Olympique Pays Basque 20
4 Munster Rugby 16
5 ASM Clermont Auvergne 16
6 Northampton Saints 15
7 Ulster Rugby 15
8 Toulon 15
9 Stade Francais Paris 14
10 Cardiff Blues 13
11 Harlequins 10
12 Edinburgh Rugby 10
13 London Wasps 9
14 Perpignan 9
15 Leicester Tigers 8
16 Ospreys 8

[Hinckley Bob]

[quote="Bill W (2)"
Which is why, elsewhere, I have suggested in his selection, squad rotation, game plan and subtirurion policies Cockers should now target the HC.

[/quote]

I agree with the principle of squad rotation but, in reality, the attritional rugby being played these days means that there is never a full squad to select from. Certainly, this season every game from October onwards was a "must win" and fans would not have been forgiving if Cockers had thrown in squad players and we had lost. It is very easy to be clever retrospectively.

[tigerburnie]

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/L ... story.html

From the horses mouth,so to speak,we will have to see how the draw goes next week now.

[Bill W (2)]

Maybe Cockers reads the forum after all!

[Richard]

And it dosent get any better because IF Tigers have another disasterous year in Europe then by removing the 2008/09 ponts the current positions would move Tigers from their current 9th ranking position to 15th position

1 Leinster Rugby 29
2 Toulouse 23
3 Biarritz Olympique Pays Basque 20
4 Munster Rugby 16
5 ASM Clermont Auvergne 16
6 Northampton Saints 15
7 Ulster Rugby 15
8 Toulon 15
9 Stade Francais Paris 14
10 Cardiff Blues 13
11 Harlequins 10
12 Edinburgh Rugby 10
13 London Wasps 9
14 Perpignan 9
15 Leicester Tigers 8
16 Ospreys 8

As the points are based over four seasons and not three(as above)they could be in an even worse position