Abysmal Celtic refs....

[WhitecapTiger]

Clive Owens therefore gets away with being dreadful - I would want him out of the game even if he was English (or any other nationality for that matter).

True: He ruined the film King Arthur, and Keira Knightly wasn't much better.

[DickyP]

Clive Owens therefore gets away with being dreadful - I would want him out of the game even if he was English (or any other nationality for that matter).

True: He ruined the film King Arthur, and Keira Knightly wasn't much better.

You're pretty perceptive - Freudian slip from having just finished watching 'The Croupier' (starring - yes you've guessed it) - at least I got the plural 'Owens' even if I missed Nigel.

[fleabane]

Allez Montpellier!!!

[Big Dai]

Bath just had a try scored against them with a forward pass about 2m, Rolland didn't call it.

So he sends off a Welshman and allows a three mile forward pass try against Bath. So? What's your problem?

[Baggy Trousers]

Okay chaps, consider this, how do you think we feel when we get that idiot Pearson?

The last half-decent English ref was Chris White - you remember the guy who told Wales they had time to kick for touch in the last minute in Rome from a penalty, then promptly blew the final whistle. Oh how we laughed Still he was decent.

The fact is there is a shortage of quality refs everywhere and it remains the hardest job in the game. Every set piece could result in several penalties, back rows constantly cheat etc etc

To the chap who says a Welsh ref shouldn't ref an Irish team, you seem to be under the misapprehension that we like each other!!!! Further how many refs do you think would be required from France & England given that two thirds of the teams come from then RaboDirect Pro12 which perhaps is a name you should make some effort to remember, ugly though it is. Simply you don't have remotely good refs to provide them in sufficent numbers.

You really need to disabuse yourselves of the notion that an Irishman prefers a Scot, Welshman, Italian, Englishman or Frenchmen any better one than the other. Your all bleedin' foreigners.

The simple fact is that the ref is the easiest man on the pitch to blame for your own teams short comings & that applies equally to an Ulsterman as a Tiger. Chillax brothers.

[dontlookdown]

You really need to disabuse yourselves of the notion that an Irishman prefers a Scot, Welshman, Italian, Englishman or Frenchmen any better one than the other. Your all bleedin' foreigners.

As I see it the problem is with interpretation of the laws. If you play with Rabodirect referees week in week out you are naturally more accustomed to the way they apply the laws. This means that in big matches it takes an english or french team 20 minutes longer to get used to the ref.

Now, in the group stages there is no chance that it would be viable for all matches to be run by people from different leagues but when you get the big matches like Leinster/Tigers last year, it should be refereed by a total impartial, ie French. (Bear in mind there are at least 3 good quality french refs and only 4 semis so this should easily be doable.)

[biffer]

Okay chaps, consider this, how do you think we feel when we get that idiot Pearson?

The last half-decent English ref was Chris White - you remember the guy who told Wales they had time to kick for touch in the last minute in Rome from a penalty, then promptly blew the final whistle. Oh how we laughed Still he was decent.

The fact is there is a shortage of quality refs everywhere and it remains the hardest job in the game. Every set piece could result in several penalties, back rows constantly cheat etc etc

To the chap who says a Welsh ref shouldn't ref an Irish team, you seem to be under the misapprehension that we like each other!!!! Further how many refs do you think would be required from France & England given that two thirds of the teams come from then RaboDirect Pro12 which perhaps is a name you should make some effort to remember, ugly though it is. Simply you don't have remotely good refs to provide them in sufficent numbers.

You really need to disabuse yourselves of the notion that an Irishman prefers a Scot, Welshman, Italian, Englishman or Frenchmen any better one than the other. Your all bleedin' foreigners.

The simple fact is that the ref is the easiest man on the pitch to blame for your own teams short comings & that applies equally to an Ulsterman as a Tiger. Chillax brothers.

Well said

And by the way you'll hardly see any Scots refs around because the SRU hasn't been investing in training. There are NO international refs from Scotland currently.

[Soggypitch]

My wife liked Clive Owen in King Arthur, then again she seems to like him in most things...!

Give Stevetelcom2000 a break, he's a good lad, a true Tiger Munsterman, usually to be found in the bar and there's nothing wrong with that!

Surely the issue here is simply that some referees are not very good, others occasionally have off days or no doubt sometimes get affected by the pressure in a big game....I don't believe any top refs are deliberately biased at all, but undoubtedly there are different interpretations of some of the laws, particularly at the breakdown!!

The real culprit therefore is the IRB who fail us all badly by not simplifying the laws to allow defending teams to properly compete at the breakdown, and making it a lottery at present.

With regard to all the moaning about the celtic league, it's their league and they can make up their own rules as they wish regarding Heineken qualification, relegation etc...

It's really nothing to do with us if it's easier to qualify for Europe from Rabo, likewise if Munster/Leinster prioritise Heineken over rabo....we, by which I mean Premier Rugby, need to put our own house in order and play by our own rules with our own priorities.

The alternative would be a European League with promotion/relegation from the Premier/Rabo/French, but there doesn't seem much of an apetite for that.

[Jose]

It's not about bias, per se, it's about interpretations. It is a disadvantage for French or English teams to play a game against Rabo opposition with a Rabo ref because their interpretation of the laws of the game is different, particularly around the tackle area. This problem is very simply solved by using neutral referees, based on the league they come from rather than their nationality. Given that there are at least 6 or 7 refs of a standard where they can referee games in their respective leagues, then it must be possible to achieve this for the Heineken Cup as a whole. At which point this should be done to ensure that the playing field is as level as possible.

As well as this, to my mind the general standard of refereeing of Rabo refs is now not as high as English and French refs. This is obviously subjective, but I just can't see any improvement over the last 5 years or so, whereas I think English and French refs have been managed effectively and improved over the same period. This is not about issues in Tigers games - my comments are coming from games I've watched as a neutral where I've been surprised by the number and significance of mistakes and the fact that on many occasions I'm at a complete loss as to why the decision has been given. I've watched various club games as a neutral this year and not had this experience when they've been refereed by English or French refs. The Saints games over the last 2 weeks are good case in points, with Saints on the end of dreadful refereeing performances by Fitzgibbon and Owens. It's simply not good enough at this level for the referee and his assistants to completely miss blatant offsides and knock-ons like that preceding Scarlet's second try, or to miss very obvious penalty offences like O'Connell going right around the maul to stop it from an offside position.

Are the Rabo league participants putting the same level of investment into refereeing and referee development as the English and French unions and leagues? From the evidence on show I'm not convinced that they are, and the resulting mistakes are increasingly expensive for the participants.

[bluntiger]

It does make me laugh when Sir Alex, Arsene, AVB and co. complain about refereeing decisions when a lineman fails to spot a player who is 3 inches offside or gives a penalty when a player is clearly shot from row Z.

Rugby's refereeing teams can't spot players who are regularly 5-6 feet offside or blatently offend at the breakdown.

Can you imagine a Sir Alex press conference if he had to put up with rugby's refereeing standards?

[biffer]

It's not about bias, per se, it's about interpretations. It is a disadvantage for French or English teams to play a game against Rabo opposition with a Rabo ref because their interpretation of the laws of the game is different, particularly around the tackle area. This problem is very simply solved by using neutral referees, based on the league they come from rather than their nationality. Given that there are at least 6 or 7 refs of a standard where they can referee games in their respective leagues, then it must be possible to achieve this for the Heineken Cup as a whole. At which point this should be done to ensure that the playing field is as level as possible.

As well as this, to my mind the general standard of refereeing of Rabo refs is now not as high as English and French refs. This is obviously subjective, but I just can't see any improvement over the last 5 years or so, whereas I think English and French refs have been managed effectively and improved over the same period. This is not about issues in Tigers games - my comments are coming from games I've watched as a neutral where I've been surprised by the number and significance of mistakes and the fact that on many occasions I'm at a complete loss as to why the decision has been given. I've watched various club games as a neutral this year and not had this experience when they've been refereed by English or French refs. The Saints games over the last 2 weeks are good case in points, with Saints on the end of dreadful refereeing performances by Fitzgibbon and Owens. It's simply not good enough at this level for the referee and his assistants to completely miss blatant offsides and knock-ons like that preceding Scarlet's second try, or to miss very obvious penalty offences like O'Connell going right around the maul to stop it from an offside position.

Are the Rabo league participants putting the same level of investment into refereeing and referee development as the English and French unions and leagues? From the evidence on show I'm not convinced that they are, and the resulting mistakes are increasingly expensive for the participants.

As in my earlier post, the SRU definitely haven't. Not sure I agree that the English ones are much better, I think there's one or two decent ones and a lot who don't come up to scratch. I think the French are better than anyone else worldwide. For me Poite is the best in the world; definitely head and shoulders above eveyone else when it comes to the scrum, although he's sometimes a little loose around the offside line - he is even handed about it though IMO.

[Jay C]

For me Poite is the best in the world; definitely head and shoulders above eveyone else when it comes to the scrum, although he's sometimes a little loose around the offside line - he is even handed about it though IMO.

Thought he had a very good game on Saturday - no complaints about any decision from me. And I think he had the respect of both teams as well as there was not much funny business going on either....

Fitzgibbon, Owens et al should take notes from this guy (although I think its too late for them to change significantly anyway).

[Old Hob]

Oddly, the Ulster fans I spoke to loathed Poite, thought he was terrible. Just no pleasing some folk.

[mol2]

I don't think bias is really an issue - the standard is the problem.

It began with Southern hemisphere refs with a liberal attitude to forward passes (all that momentum :censored:) and a negative approach to allowing a dominant scrum from using their domninace.

Too much interpretation of the laws and too few refs simply apply the laws rather than interpret them.

The top French refs are head and shoulders above the rest. The Irish, Kiwi and Australian crop are some of the worst. The English SA & Welsh fall between.

What's is particularly difficult to take is the failure of touch judges at international level to indicate forward passes and knock ons - they are qualified refs in their own right.