Is Toby Flood actually any good?

[jack]

Humbug, biffer. Just mischief. It lead to protracted discussion,

[Cardiff Tig]

By the above argument, neither Wilko or O'Gara has ever been world class (a separate argument in itself), as they don't (and can't) play flat on the gain line, and in world rugby in 2011 you don't win a great deal playing like that. Similarly Carter never has to adjust his game and stand particularly deep, because he never plays behind a pack which isn't at least achieving parity and I can't remember him ever having to play with poor quality scrum halves and/or centres. Also, I don't remember even Carter adapting his game successfully in the 2007 World Cup, when an avalanche of possession and territory was wasted (presumably at least in part by Carter) vs France.

Very few fly halves can change their style entirely to suit the game.

By the very nature of the position, fly half is an area where you can always pick fault. It just seems to me that a number of people on here are far quicker to acknowledge Flood's faults than his strengths. In world rugby at the moment I'd rate Carter definitely above him (obviously), then Nick Evans, then possibly Quade Cooper (but it should be noted that Cooper actually frequently blows up far worse than Flood under pressure) and maybe Trinh-Duc. Sexton is on a par with Flood and again the same criticisms could be levelled at him because he plays flat (similar international issues to Flood too, being withdrawn for O'Gara to come on). Priestland has started well, but I'd need a while longer to judge. Beyond that I'm struggling with who else I'd want to replace him with. Certainly nobody else English - the arguments around Hodgson (can't tackle and far flakier than Flood has ever been), Wilko (blatantly past it), Farrell (not a first choice club 10), Myler (not a first choice club 10), Lamb (can't tackle or play on the back foot) don't really hold water.

Hence I'm forced to conclude that Flood is actually very good.

im not arguing that he should change his style entirely but that in the big games he fails to make the right choices regarding the options available. and its hardly difficult for him to stand a couple of metres deeper and kick the ball once in a while, hardly changing his whole style of play. hes used to standing deep and kicking when in defence anyway! and as i said, i think hes very good at playing flat.

[4071]

Also, I don't remember even Carter adapting his game successfully in the 2007 World Cup, when an avalanche of possession and territory was wasted (presumably at least in part by Carter) vs France

Carter went off injured. It was actually the loss of two fly-halves in the same game that left NZ looking so rudderless. Had Carter stayed on the pitch, I suspect that NZ would have just become the first team to win back-to-back World Cups.

I believe NZ were winning 13-6 when he went off.

[4071]

Flood, playing with Ben inside him and Allen outside generally plays very well.
He is not Dan Carter but who is?
My worry is that his kicking is starting to be unreliable, a major handicap for any team.
I was convinced that his kicking form and that of most other kickers at the world cup, had something to do with the new balls. Indeed, that the England coaches were banned for changing the ball, was indicative of this.So are we now using the world cup balls for club games or what?

Maybe you just want to actually check his kicking stats during the WC and since he's returned to Tigers.

[DickyP]

This really is probably the silliest thread we've had in a long time.

Toby Flood is not perfect - but then again who is a lot better in world rugby at present? Perhaps two players and do you think Tigers can get them?

Whose better in England - Nick Evans and ..... eh, nobody.

Case dismissed.

[Isambard]

imho Toby Flood is an excellent 10 despite the very variable and limited performances of Tigers and England sides over at least the last 2 years.

and of course the conflicting coaching advice he has received

[Duncan B]

Maybe you just want to actually check his kicking stats during the WC and since he's returned to Tigers.

In the world cup he had no hard kicks except the one against scotland, I think every single one of his kicks was actually a conversion against a minnow (except Scotland, which was a brilliant kick). But under pressure I dont think you can deny he is struggling from the tee and drop goals too. Dire in the Prem final, dire v London irish, horribly shanked a the important kick against France (admittedly with a dodgy ball) I honestly like Toby Flood a great deal, but I too am worried about his wobbles in front of the sticks, but Im sure he will come through it a mentally tougher player, he has been on such an upward curve since he has been at Tigers, he had to plateau and have a form dip at some point. Thats just sport.

[biffer]

This really is probably the silliest thread we've had in a long time.

Toby Flood is not perfect - but then again who is a lot better in world rugby at present? Perhaps two players and do you think Tigers can get them?

Whose better in England - Nick Evans and ..... eh, nobody.

Case dismissed.

Are you seriously sayiong the only tens in world rugby that are better than Flood are Carter and Evans?

Take the tiger striped blinkers off

[Isambard]

Think that's the size of it. Flood is the best English 10 and the 2nd best 10 in the Premiership. He might look better if Tigers trained to attack, follow floody and look to be where he wants them to be

[DickyP]

This really is probably the silliest thread we've had in a long time.

Toby Flood is not perfect - but then again who is a lot better in world rugby at present? Perhaps two players and do you think Tigers can get them?

Whose better in England - Nick Evans and ..... eh, nobody.

Case dismissed.

Are you seriously sayiong the only tens in world rugby that are better than Flood are Carter and Evans?

Take the tiger striped blinkers off

So who is a lot better? Many may be about his equal - I'm not so naïve (or stupid) to think that he's that wonderful - but there is no-one out there really good enough to go and break the bank for. This is even truer of potential English alternatives. In the whole of the UK only Priestland is probably better (potentially much better): certainly Sexton, Parks, Jones, O'Gara, Biggar, Ruaridh Jackson, Charlie Hodgson or Bowden to name the big names offer no noticeable advantage.

As to the Tiger striped blinkers - I'd just say this whole thread is blinkered: he comes back from the RWC and be easily the most consistent back on the field and to dominate the first two of the games completely (the point at which this thread was raised) and people are criticising.

[Tiglon]

Can't believe this is still going on!

Biffer, who do you think Tigers could realistically sign, and would be a significant improvement?

Remember, signing players isn't as simple as looking down a list of every player in the world who plays in that position and picking one.

[biffer]

Can't believe this is still going on!

Biffer, who do you think Tigers could realistically sign, and would be a significant improvement?

Remember, signing players isn't as simple as looking down a list of every player in the world who plays in that position and picking one.

Who said anything about signing players? The title of the thread's provocative, and as I've already said I think he's decent. My problem is with people who seem to think he's one of the best two or three fly halves in the world.

[Tiglon]

I was assuming that if you're questioning whether he is "any good", you would think we should sign someone better.

I would certainly want the club to sign someone better if I felt our fly half wasn't any good.

If you don't think he should be replaced, does that not imply that you think he is good enough?

[biffer]

I was assuming that if you're questioning whether he is "any good", you would think we should sign someone better.

I would certainly want the club to sign someone better if I felt our fly half wasn't any good.

If you don't think he should be replaced, does that not imply that you think he is good enough?

If you don't understand my previous post I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

[fleabane]

We should have recognised biffer's first post for what it was. The error was replying to it, and giving him more opportunity to spout.