Well Cockers!!

[Cardiff Tig]

i don't understand why everyone seems to be blaming RC for not being able to adapt to teams that can match us up front and negate are game play?! for most games such as the leinster QF and the sarris final we played much better in the second half so obviously things were said at half time to change things etc and we do adapt.

in my opinion Flood needs to shoulder at least some of the blame, for me he's shown that he's definately not world class yet and when his pack isn't on the front foot he really struggles and can't adapt his game plan. for an international 10 with the amount of caps he's got i don't think thats good enough! sames goes for BY to a certain extent, in games where hes on the back foot he pretty much goes AWOL!

[Bill W (2)]

i don't understand why everyone seems to be blaming RC for not being able to adapt to teams that can match us up front and negate are game play?! for most games such as the leinster QF and the sarris final we played much better in the second half so obviously things were said at half time to change things etc and we do adapt.

in my opinion Flood needs to shoulder at least some of the blame, for me he's shown that he's definately not world class yet and when his pack isn't on the front foot he really struggles and can't adapt his game plan. for an international 10 with the amount of caps he's got i don't think thats good enough! sames goes for BY to a certain extent, in games where hes on the back foot he pretty much goes AWOL!

Welcome to the forum.

Have you read the posts? We are not doing blame.

We are asking what needs to be done differently.

Maybe RC needs to develop a game plan that enables the England International Scrum and Fly Half to cope when the pack is not on the front foot.

Perhpas Flood needs to lie deeper, perhaps the back row need to run different support lines, perhaps .........

As I say, we are not doing blame. Of RC, BY or TF.

We are asking what do we need to do differently.

[Cardiff Tig]

you're right, blame was probably the wrong word!

an international fly half should be able to realise when he should stand deep and kick for territory if there back line isn't going anywhere and change his plan accordingly. he should marshall the back line accordingly, at the end of the game at twickenham TF and BY were definately not acting like the number one half backs and i do think Toby cost us the game, but not because of his missed kicks!

[Bill W (2)]

an international fly half should be able to realise when he should stand deep and kick for territory if there back line isn't going anywhere and change his plan accordingly. he should marshall the back line accordingly, at the end of the game at twickenham TF and BY were definately not acting like the number one half backs and i do think Toby cost us the game, but not because of his missed kicks!

Yes he should. And the game plan should allow him and them to do it.

So we need to change the game plan to allow "the hinge" to adapt to what is happenning in the pack.

Toby did not cost us the game. The inability (for whatever reason) of him (or Youngs, or Newby or anybody) to adapt the game plan might have done.

Now we are addressing what needs to be done differently.

Who calls for and orchestrates this change? Is it not the DoR and Head Coach?

But do they recognise (as you clearly do) the need for this change?

Welcome again to the forum and the discussion.

[Cardiff Tig]

thank you! i've always looked onto the forum now and again to check any rumours mainly, thought i'd pitch in with my opinion this time.

i accept that RC should be the one calling the shots for the intial game plan, but where do you draw the line exactly? at some point players have to take responsibility. as i've said after half time we often play better etc so RC does adapt his game plan throughout a game.

if the forwards cannot get quick ball because for example we are not putting enough bodies into the rucks should it be down to RC to get instructions onto the pitch somehow or should our pack which has internationals at most places realise this themselves? if TF sees that the defence is very agressive and gives him little time does he need to be told that he might try chipping the defence every now and again to keep them guessing?

RC could spend the whole week before a game coaching his players for every situation he can think of but there's bound to be something that happens that the players themselves need to react to!

do you really think that RC tells his players that if the game plan isn't working that they should just keep doing the same thing because i don't! this season i've been more disappointed with our players than with RC!

[Bill W (2)]

do you really think that RC tells his players that if the game plan isn't working that they should just keep doing the same thing because i don't! this season i've been more disappointed with our players than with RC!

I do not know what RC and MO'C tell the players. I, like you, merely see the results. And clearly few if any of the players feel empowered to change the game plan. Be it Flood chipping over the rush defence (with no sweepers in place); Newby calling for more bodies at the breakdown or Ben for the back row on his shoulders.

So there is something else that should be done differently.

[Cardiff Tig]

but do you agree that an international fly half or back row should be able to call some shots themselves? maybe the fact that neither deacon or geordan were on the pitch affected this somewhat? at the level there playing at the coach should be redundant in some aspects of a game. i saw castro at twickenham on the pitch talking to ayerza and chuter after one scrum had gone against them clearly telling them what they should do next time (although it was shortly before he was subbed so not sure if they put it into practice!). why can't more players do this? i dont think this is a coaching problem but a players problem to see things as they are in front of them.

i agree something must be done differently! but im not sure that that it comes down purely to RC and O'C.

[Bill W (2)]

i agree something must be done differently! but im not sure that that it comes down purely to RC and O'C.

Of course not. But it is down to RC and MO'C to cause the players to do things differently.

To sit with Toby with the video of the Sarries defence advancing in a line with no sweepers and say "Why did you not call 57 (or wahtever the call for short chip run with me on my shoulders is)?". To sit with Ben,........to sit with Newby .......etc etc. Very very clearly the players do not feel empowed to make these changes themselves currently.

[Cardiff Tig]

i agree on the analysis front, but still think if i can see something going wrong in a game the players definately should be able to! you would think that toby at some point in his career has been told by somebody (not necessarily RC) that he could occasionally chip the defence etc etc so why can't he realise this now? i could understand if we had owen farrell, his first season as fly half, you might expect original game plans to be stuck to whether they are working or not!

if they don't feel empowered to call a few shots and risk things with RC then why would bringing in anyone else change this when RC is DOR still? and if RC is replaced with someone of the suitable calibre would the players suddenly grow a back bone?!! im not convinced!

on the things that need to be changed front my biggest concern is that we need a suitable replacement for deacon. skivs is a more than competent replacement in the aviva but in the top end games e.g HC knockout we are lacking something, same goes for slater. parling will help but he was a great foil to deacons game in the season that he made himself and its the one area where i feel we have too many good but not enough outstanding players! you could say RC didnt recruit well enough there!

[Bill W (2)]

you would think that toby at some point in his career has been told by somebody (not necessarily RC) that he could occasionally chip the defence etc etc so why can't he realise this now?

I agree. And conclude that he has been told not (in Brian Ashtons words) to play what is in front of you but to stick to the predetermined game plan. This instruction needs to be countermanded.

Re deacs again I agree. Although I think Cockers recruitement will prove adequate.

[TigerAlex]

Welcome to the forum.

Have you read the posts? We are not doing blame.

Are you serious? I've read through all of the posts on this thread and whilst you personally may not be 'doing blame,' certain other posters most certainly are. In any case, there is a fine line between 'discussing what can be improved' and apportioning blame (and there isn't necessarily anything wrong with that as long as there is logic and reasoning behind it rather than a personal vendetta). Especially when you've also said that you think that players have been told to stick to a predetermined gameplan (which I actually think is a fair conclusion). For me the question is who has been scaring them into not deviating from said predetermined gameplan? I also note that England have been criticised for having the same problem. For that matter, I have seen the same lack of 'plan B' across most clubs in the premiership.

[Crumblies]

For me the question is who has been scaring them into not deviating from said predetermined gameplan?

Do you need to ask that question following the home games against Goucester and then against London Irish and the subsequent dressing down in front of 20 000 fans.

[Purebob]

"Blame " is the wrong word IMO. Responsibility and attribution are the keys.

Injuries and call-ups were surely responsible for some issues this year, but rotation policy, tactics and execution also play their part in us topping the table but not having the extra 10% needed to win silverware.

RC and MoC need to take responsibility for their successful actions, but also their less successful ones. The senior players similarly.

Nobody failed , so blame is not appropriate. A dissection of the ingredients of the season with attribution of responsibility is CRUCIAL so we can change to gain the extra 10% we need for silverware.

Every system or machine is perfectly calibrated to achieve the results it gets.
Intelligent recalibration is what we need, not a new machine.

[Rykard]

Every system or machine is perfectly calibrated to achieve the results it gets.
Intelligent recalibration is what we need, not a new machine.

Like that - pretty much sums it up.

[POSTIGER]

The back row struggle to 'dog it out' when needs must. Great on the front foot but unsure when under the cosh.

I'm not saying it's all down to the back row but I do believe their lack of adaptability is a major factor in our lack of success.