Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

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Tiger_in_Birmingham
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham »

northamptontillidie wrote:
kpbates wrote:
fleabane wrote:Yes from me too!


Do u believe then we deserve to be called the 'biggest cheats in th northern hemisphere'(not my words but what i have read on planet rugby)
When incidents like what Neil Back did happen, yes.
Almost a decade ago, plus that was nothing dirty like punching (or even eye gouging!) but something to get away with when the ref is on the other side of the scrum - much akin to Mujati never binding on the body but always on the arm.....


As for not playing during internationals most people here agree - but that is the system so get used to it! Don't pay over the top money for Tonga to stop him going to Sarries and buy two other props instead - Tigers squad has 10 players more than Saints but how many are on big money now?

Croft was on a long term deal before he was playing for England
Youngs was on a long term deal before he got into the England set up
Flood was signed when he was barely playing for Newcastle

the list goes on - spot the talent and sign it up before it gets too expensive otherwise you have a strong 15 with no bench and no cover for call ups/injurues
tig1
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by tig1 »

kpbates wrote:
tig1 wrote:Short answer...Yes.
Explain your answer then?? Without mentioning Manu.
Well if i cant focus on Manu then lets focus on the fact that we have a director of rugby that thinks its acceptable to continually use foul and abusive language towards officials. Its the not the first time from RC, far from it.

Do i want Tigers name associated with that ? Abuse and intimidation of officals ? Absolutely not.

There are plenty of fantastic and successful rugby coaches, that combine their roles with upholding the traditions of the game when it comes to respecting officals. Northampton had one yesterday in Jim Mallinder.

You cannot expect people in the rugby world to respect Tigers when you have a head coach who behaves like this
G.K
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by G.K »

Yes and No...

Yes - Manu over reacted and deserves everything he gets.

Yes - Cockers et al should keep mouths shut more during the match and not berate officials.

No - we are not responsible for the incorrect decsions of the officials.

No - it can not be proven that we would have lost with a Yellow for Ashton and a Red for Manu.

Leaving the controversy aside then two other things are clear:

Saints made several borderline and some illegal hits early on in the game which went unpunished (except by Flood). That set the tone for the game.

Tigers were clearly the better team overall, check the stats for territory, posession etc.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
kpb
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by kpb »

tig1 wrote:
kpbates wrote:
tig1 wrote:Short answer...Yes.
Explain your answer then?? Without mentioning Manu.
Well if i cant focus on Manu then lets focus on the fact that we have a director of rugby that thinks its acceptable to continually use foul and abusive language towards officials. Its the not the first time from RC, far from it.

Do i want Tigers name associated with that ? Abuse and intimidation of officals ? Absolutely not.

There are plenty of fantastic and successful rugby coaches, that combine their roles with upholding the traditions of the game when it comes to respecting officals. Northampton had one yesterday in Jim Mallinder.

You cannot expect people in the rugby world to respect Tigers when you have a head coach who behaves like a delinquant yob.
If i had a choice though between Cockers and Mallinder??

Give me Cockers anytime,fair enough a quite word from the Peters but lets not blow things out of context!

It's sure to be a fiery final!!
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Big Dai
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by Big Dai »

northamptontillidie wrote:
kpbates wrote:Why are you so confident that saints would have beaten tigers with 14 men??

We do deserve to be there.

Where did saints finish in the table??
Because look how close the game was up to that point 0-0, very evenly matched. I cannot think of the last time a team went down to 14 men in the first half and went onto win the game but maybe there is a match out there.

Yes you finished top but the league is flawed. We were absolutely dominating the league until the 6 nations came (we'd lost 2 games), and we lost all our games (6) without our internationals and when they came back we won all our games, bar a Gloucester midweek game which we put our reserves out for.

So i don't think your argument of deserving to be in the final because you came top in the league is really fair. Either the playoffs are there or no premiership matches are played during internationl weekends.

You came fourth because your squad is not good enough to cover for international duties. Therefore it is not good enough to will the league. Come top at the end of the season and I'll change my tune. Till then...............
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kingneptuneii
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by kingneptuneii »

northamptontillidie wrote:
Yes Manu deserves another chance but he still should have been sent off and its therefore very unlikely you'd have made the final.
with the complete dross you brought in the second half, we'd have beaten you with 7 men, let alone 14
Never mind the ball, get on with the game!!
kingneptuneii
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by kingneptuneii »

northamptontillidie wrote: Yes but your missing my point here. Look at football. They would never allow club matches on the same day as internationals. If rugby were the same it looks likely we'd have finished top, hence why we need the playoffs regardless of where a team finishes and therefore just because you finish top doesnt mean you deserve to win the league. I personally think we should have no premiership matches on international weekends and scrap the playoffs.
your team voted FOR playing league games during internationals, only one team voted against, who was that again? oh yes, TIGERS! we've been saying its a silly system for years, suddenly, your lack of strength in depth becomes glaringly obvious, and lo and behold, "oh, we sholdnt play during internationals!". if we had our fist team for the whole season, we'd STILL finish top.
Never mind the ball, get on with the game!!
barnythebear
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by barnythebear »

Just finished watching the highlights on Sky. At one point in the second half Saints had been in our 22 for 1% of the play and that must have been the second half kick off. I thought the first half was more even but not from the highlights again hardly any time in our 22. On the balance of play ours by a country mile!
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by Kinoulton »

smalldell wrote:It was a shocking incident in anyones book and if it had happened to us we would be up in arms about it...brace yourself for a long suspension....could be anything between 8 and 16 weeks in my opinion...
It's all very subjective. because it didn't shock me at all.

There was an offence and it will be punished.

I've seen far worse on the football field, and that is apparently a game played by Jessies.
Kicks and scrums and ruck and roll.....Is all my brain and body need!
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by DickyP »

I don't need to comment further on Manu's transgression and I suspect he'll get what he deserves. However, what did make me smile was other than the punch-up he had a pretty good game overall. In the Rugby Paper today he was given a 4 for his performance. Almost as if you lose marks for being a bad boy like in school, as opposed to being an objective scoring of performance.
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in_the_middle
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by in_the_middle »

As someone on the outside who is neither a Leicester or Saints fan, I cannot condone the so called "bashing" Tigers are getting. However, I don't see how anyone can defend Manu for the reaction to Ashton's shove. It is an outburst not uncommon to those seen on Saturday nights after drunks have had too much to drink. Which nowadays are captured by CCTV and those found guilty recieve criminal records.

I do however have two questions related to his actions:

1) What sort of message do you think his [Manu's] actions are sending to the public [mainly children] watching one of the highly anticipated games of the season?

2) Do you think he would have reacted in the same way had he stood up to Sonny Bill Williams standing above him, and whether it was an actual instinct reaction to an out burst of rage (in which case, anger management boxing would be appropriate) or whether it was to put an in-form player off his game in probably the biggest game of the season?

Either way, it will yet again become the talking point rather, than the rugby, which the game will be remembered for.
yellow_balaclava_hunter
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by yellow_balaclava_hunter »

in_the_middle wrote:As someone on the outside who is neither a Leicester or Saints fan, I cannot condone the so called "bashing" Tigers are getting. However, I don't see how anyone can defend Manu for the reaction to Ashton's shove. It is an outburst not uncommon to those seen on Saturday nights after drunks have had too much to drink. Which nowadays are captured by CCTV and those found guilty recieve criminal records.

I do however have two questions related to his actions:

1) What sort of message do you think his [Manu's] actions are sending to the public [mainly children] watching one of the highly anticipated games of the season?

2) Do you think he would have reacted in the same way had he stood up to Sonny Bill Williams standing above him, and whether it was an actual instinct reaction to an out burst of rage (in which case, anger management boxing would be appropriate) or whether it was to put an in-form player off his game in probably the biggest game of the season?

Either way, it will yet again become the talking point rather, than the rugby, which the game will be remembered for.
What sort of message does Ashton getting up off the floor to run five metres and smack an opponent in the back of the head twice send to the public?

What sort of message to the public does the Northampton team send by bringing a gameplan clearly based on cheap shots and intimidation?

I am sick and tired of people criticising Manu but forgetting that it was in retaliation to an act that was equally as disgraceful. Criticise Ashton too. Criticise Northampton for setting the tone of the game.
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Tigerbeat
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by Tigerbeat »

I do not believe that anyone is defending Manus actions and I believe that it should have been a red card.
The game was a highly charged match with a lot at stake and players were pumped up. Manu lost his head and was out of order.
Have there not been other players in other teams that have seen the red mist? This is physical game and these things do happen from time to time.
This is not in character with Manu and he will take the consequences that go with his actions.

The officials made the call and you can only play what is in front of you.

By the way, good luck to Northampton in Cardiff next week.

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Bill W (2)
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Re: Is the bashing we are getting deserved?

Post by Bill W (2) »

yellow_balaclava_hunter wrote: Criticise Ashton too. Criticise Northampton for setting the tone of the game.
And criticize Barnes for allowing the tone to be set.

In the context of his earlier decisions Manu did not deserve a red card. Late and high tackles and punches had gone unpunished. So the tone was set.
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Post by Outlander »

Hi, folks. Though I haven't had much to say of late, I follow the forum virtually every day and yesterday sat down eagerly to watch Tigers-Saints.

I got caught up in the game, and didn't dwell too much on the incident, but it was bothering the back of my mind. I actually thought it would have been smart to replace Manu in the 2nd half. It would have been the right thing to do ethically, I think, and probably the safe thing competitively, since possible ill effects in the 2nd half abounded: referee reaction, Saints' intensity, Manu playing self-consciously, a 2nd yellow, etc. None of that happened, but at the half I worried about the possibilities.

After the game, I felt really lousy. I felt that a great Tigers win--the team was superb at a level it hasn't been for a long time--was somehow tainted by a really nasty moment from a young man I had previously seen as a shining example of young talent and intelligence on the pitch. I mean, it wasn't one punch. It was THREE PUNCHES! Really nasty ones. And not in closed quarters at the bottom of a ruck, but out in the open, directed repeatedly at a retreating opponent.

I dunno--those images stick with me. They taint my view of Manu, displacing the heretofore feel-good story of the Leicester community rallying to extend the lads visa and all the rest. For me, Manu will have some work to do to leave those images in the past. I believe he needs to make a major statement of contrition to the rugby world, to Saints and to a guy who would otherwise be likely to be his England teammate. He needs to demonstrate clearly that he gets it--such an act is unacceptable.

So anyway, I logged in after the game to see what the reaction was in Tiger Nation. And then it got worse. I started reading about Cockerill.

I honestly feel that Cockerill's actions reflect worse on Tigers as a club than did Manu's punches. Manu is 19 and he was playing in a tough game, and what might prove to be a one-off incident can be understood.

But Cockerill's actions were performed by a man in his 40s (?) who has been through the rugby wars hundreds of times and who is recognized as the leader of the club.

Now, before I get too sanctimonious, I need to acknowledge that I have suffered from temper in my day. I have some bad moments on my conscience of having berated officials. I have had to realize that I don't do well in certain situations.

But then, I think that's the point. I don't ask Cockerill to become a different person, one who can push all the messy passion inside during a big rugby match.

I do ask him to look at himself and draw 2 conclusions:
  • What I did was not acceptable. No matter what the referees were up to. I need to state this clearly and unequivocally.

    I need to take steps to prevent this from happening. If that means I need to coach from some isolated vantage point, then that's what I need to do.
Unfortunately, I am not sure that Cockerill sees things this way. According to press reports, he seemed very reluctant to take any responsibility for his actions. And if he doesn't see the need to make changes, they are not going to happen.

Well, I dunno. I'm a Yank who watches from afar and did not grow up in the game. Much of the code of rugby confuses me. What do I know?

But I'll tell you what. As a guy who became a far-off fan late in life, I have always admired the camaraderie of the game. The way lovers of the sport--players and fans--could so rapidly transcend the result and mutually affirm the sport itself. You folks know this infinitely better than I do, but there is a special kind of common bond that normally and impressively transcends partisan divisiveness in the game. I have always appreciated expressions of that.

In this instance, I feel that Manu and Cockerill have let the side--the side of ruggers and their fans--down. Fairly seriously. I feel lousy about it.

Of course, I will be living and dying with next week's game against Sarries. I yearn for the rest of the Tigers who played so well yesterday to bring the trophy home after a year of enormous adversity.

But as a Tigers fan, I don't think I can come to that game with a clean heart until I state in unambiguous terms that neither Manu's nor Cockerill's actions are acceptable and that they taint the team's achievement.

I hope both of these men realize that they need to break cleanly with that past as well.

As I say, I'm just a Yank and I have my own sins to worry about. I look forward to Tigers and their fans slowly living this incident down and continuing to uphold the banner of rugby excellence. If Harlequins could live down Blood-gate, I figure we'll get past this.
Just a Yankee looker-on from afar.
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