Ben Youngs vs Frank Murphy

tac106 · Post by **tac106** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:33 am

It's no contest really; I was very impressed with Ben yesterday.

He looked confident and assured and was directing the forwards with the maturity of someone beyond his years and experience.

He's quicker than Murphy and this was really highlighted against Toulouse. He was faster to the breakdown and was able to make one or two sniping breaks which really adds to our game (as shown when Ellis plays). Murphy consistently delays making the pass at the ruck which I found incredibly frustrating yesterday. As someone else mentioned it's almost like he's thinking about what to do next and doesn't know - at the highest level you just can't afford to do this.

Ben also made an excellent box kick that resulted in a penalty, which Goode duly kicked, and shows he has the range of skills necessary to become an excellent scrum-half.

He did make a few looping passes but this will improve and doesn't concern me too much.

Youngs to start next week.

cooke-1 · Post by **cooke-1** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:47 am

I thought murphy had a good game and maybe you're being a bit over critical of him
Ben played really well but is only young-so is a start away at Toulouse the right environment for him?

bigted · Post by **bigted** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:24 pm

he rele reminded me of ellis, he must be learning alot off him. if hes got the confidence to come on against at team like that and play like he did then i think we have a england hopful on our hands in a few years.

Iain · Post by **Iain** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:28 pm

Yes Frank was slow, and yes it was frustrating. But have you considered that the game plan may have been to slow them down and frustrate them?

Youngs did look okay but had a big attack of the yips towards the end when his passing was all over the place. Can't afford that in the big matches I'm afraid!

Jeremy Anderson · Post by **Jeremy Anderson** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:03 pm

I agree start with Frank and play Ben for second half. I think Ben has the greater potential but having seen him 'lose it' in an A team game he is not the finished article and needs bringing through and developing.
Ben will be fighting it out with Hazza before too long (I hope).

tac106 · Post by **tac106** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:22 pm

Fair points all. Maybe next week is too much for Ben to start but I think we should take that risk.

I don't want to be too critical of Frank, he has certain 'reliability' about him.

But, with regards Iain's comments, his passing from the base of rucks is always slow and I'm sure that isn't a tactic we play week in week out, for the entirety of each game. If it is, I can't foresee us winning the Heineken Cup playing that way - but maybe I'm wrong.

Frank was in space on occasion yesterday, and I give him credit for getting in those positions, but had he had more pace may have created some real try-scoring opportunities.

It's a tight call, but why not put some faith in the kid. I believe it will work a la Humphreys against Munster last year.

sammy · Post by **sammy** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:12 pm

Good god! You must all be joking? Youngs was poor. He is a long way away from starting a game like that. Half way through the second half he forgot to pass and started chucking out horrific long pops. Not up to scratch at all - one good box to his credit.

Frankie looked quick and dangerous until he was knocked out - then he looked slow. Not surprising, I wouldn't have expected quick ball from Ricky Hatton after the tenth round, so don't expect miracles from Frankie.

Start with Frankie, all the way in Toulose. Youngs would get murdered. The boy has got a lot of potential but he would be nowhere near the first xv without the inkury crisis.

murphy15 · Post by **murphy15** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:21 pm

Youngs will be a class player, but this is too early for him. Looked very nervous (understandably so when he had Kelleher and Nyanga in his face whenever he touched the ball!), made some risky decisions - first attempted offload almost resulted in Toulouse try. Murphy has the experience that is needed in games like Toulouse away.

tac106 · Post by **tac106** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:21 pm

I don't think Youngs looked nervous at all. But agree that his passing was poor.

Let's go with a Youngs-Humphreys 9-10 axis. Liven things up a bit.

TigerCam · Post by **TigerCam** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:31 pm

Frank was too slow in getting the ball away form the breakdown giving Toulouse the time and players into the right positions. Ben was more aggressive at the breakdown but his passing (what on earth were those looping passes) was poor under pressure. With Harry not coming back until next season it certainly make the 9/10 combination a bit of an issue. Lots of pressure will be applied by Bryan Kellerer next week - he had no joy with Nigel Owens this time around but he was very good and just as well his backs screwed up with the ball.

sammy · Post by **sammy** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:39 pm

TigerCam wrote:Frank was too slow in getting the ball away form the breakdown giving Toulouse the time and players into the right positions. Ben was more aggressive at the breakdown but his passing (what on earth were those looping passes) was poor under pressure. With Harry not coming back until next season it certainly make the 9/10 combination a bit of an issue. Lots of pressure will be applied by Bryan Kellerer next week - he had no joy with Nigel Owens this time around but he was very good and just as well his backs screwed up with the ball.

Interesting. Firstly, Frankie's passing was razor sharp until he got poleaxed - not his fault. Anyone who saw the game surely saw that ball slowed down after his knock. He was substituted as a result. It's not rocket science.

Secondly, Byron (not Bryan, although it made me laugh) was not good. He was pretty awful. He kicked two boxes out on the full and was far from sharp at the breakdown. Ben was indeed agressive at the breakdown, but when you're 4ft 3inches and weigh seven stone it makes that sort of gameplay pretty futile.

As for the person who thought we should play Youngs and Humphries....well, I despair. We would lose so heavily. Goodey was yet again superb yesterday. Yet again he fails to get the respect. Disgusting. I swear half the fans down Tigers have never played the game.

murphy15 · Post by **murphy15** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:31 pm

You can tell that Kelleher is used to having a better 10 playing outside of him. His kicking was pretty rusty.

tac106 · Post by **tac106** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:25 pm

Hello Sammy. The following also made me laugh:

Toulouse spelt as Toulose.

Injury spelt as inkury.

Humphreys spelt as Humphries.

I could go on.

Have some respect for others opinions and lets debate properly. You're too aggressive; chill a little.

quincy · Post by **quincy** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:14 pm

If you watched the game properly, you would have seen that Ben actually had a poor game. He attempted 4 breaks, one after the other and got turned over in the first two (candy from a baby springs to mind). He also made four bad passes on the trot and put Goodey in trouble for one instead of kicking himself.
However we all have bad games and this was one of his.
He is an exceptional talent for his age and will be a Tigers scrumhalf in years to come. He has buckets of self confidence which he must control and be willing to learn as he goes along.
Tigers must be careful how they bring Ben through but unfortunately at the moment have no other options.
To Ben, be patient. You will make it but learn from those in front.

Adamspoon · Post by **Adamspoon** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:44 pm

Youngs looks like he might be a good prospect but it's impossible to say anything more than that at the moment. He did not have a great game and should definitely not be startig next Sunday. And whowever it was who touted him as "a future england prospect" is getting way ahead of themselves.

Incidentally why do people insist as labeling any youngish player who they think is playing well as future england material? It's ridiculous!