Rugby tonight

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Scott1
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Scott1 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:18 pm

It is well behaved,my point is very valid!

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:19 pm

ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:00 pm
You don't sound like a massive biggot, so I'm sure you would change your behavoir if someone was genuinely offended by it. Just don't assume that all those offended are just attention seeking.
Of course I would. I would never go out to offend or hurt anyone. One of my degrees included German history and I have studied and visited a lot of concentrations camps in Germany and Poland, which can be seen as some of the worst examples of anti-humanity, and these affected me to my core. I think we are on the same page regarding not wanting to hurt anyone, but there are a lot of young people who are attention seeking, who annoy the ... out of me.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by GB72 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:23 pm

chris111 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:57 pm
Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:10 pm
You could argue that a lot of the Facebook generation are complete drama queens, rather than being "sensitive"...

Pellsey, I understand that it can sometimes be uncomfortable to face up to being asked to change certain types of behaviour and language because it causes upset to others. I’ve been through that myself as a rural working-class boy from the Fens, growing up in the 1960s/70s, what I then saw as normal I now see as racist, misogynist and homophobic. When times and environments change, there are two choices; change or don’t change accordingly.
I chose the former; it took a while for it to become natural and I made mistakes along the way - and, yes, there were times when I became a little exasperated when having just got around to using more generally acceptable language - social mores changed again! I’m still learning and adapting - I confess that I’m not quite there yet with gender fluidity and pronoun choice, but as I meet and talk with more and more non-binary people it’s coming. My kids are great with educating me on this, as non-binary identity feels completely ordinary and unremarkable to them.

I understand that others find these matters so unsettling that they resist change entirely, and end up resenting those who ask them to change. I find this reaction sad and disappointing, however - life feels so much better if you actually reach out and try to understand others’ perspectives. More importantly, the ‘anti-woke, anti-PC’ discourse provides cover for those who actively enjoy causing others discomfort. I hasten to add that I’m not accusing anyone on this forum of acting in bad faith in this way - but I do believe that if you take the line that your right to speak without consideration for the feelings of others around you is a fundamental right, you are providing encouragement for others with more malign motives.

I know we ‘woke warriors’ are frequently accused of being lacking in a sense of proportion and in a perpetual state of outrage. It doesn’t actually feel like that on this side of the culture war…ironically, from where I stand it’s the ‘other side’ who seem determined to be offended by the most trivial of things (“it’s an outrage, blah blah, how dare they make me change”, “leave my statues alone”, “take that white poppy off it’s an insult, blah blah”.).

So, returning (briefly!) back to the Chiefs…I suspect precious few people (indigenous Americans or otherwise) are actually offended or outraged. More commonly, they just find it rather crass and impolite - and that it would be more dignified for Exeter to move on and accept that it doesn’t really reflect current social values.
Excellent post and one that sums up much of my upbringing (albeit a decade later). I do believe that there is a starting point at least which, I believe, some American clubs have adopted. Keep the name Chiefs but remove the iconography from the badge, it and merchandise and actively disuade the supporters from the offensively stereotyped chant and 'chop'. I actually think that the chant and chop are some of the most divisive elements of the whole thing.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Scott1 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:23 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:19 pm
ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:00 pm
You don't sound like a massive biggot, so I'm sure you would change your behavoir if someone was genuinely offended by it. Just don't assume that all those offended are just attention seeking.
Of course I would. I would never go out to offend or hurt anyone. One of my degrees included German history and I have studied and visited a lot of concentrations camps in Germany and Poland, which can be seen as some of the worst examples of anti-humanity, and these affected me to my core. I think we are on the same page regarding not wanting to hurt anyone, but there are a lot of young people who are attention seeking, who annoy the ... out of me.
Funny how the most people who get involved have absolutely NO ties or any involvement in anything they "protest" for. Some of them would turn up to the opening of an envelope and are embarrassing! Take BLM ,i know many many black people from being born and bought up on a multicultural council estate and they cringe from it. They wish they would just stop tbh

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by GB72 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:26 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:19 pm
ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:00 pm
You don't sound like a massive biggot, so I'm sure you would change your behavoir if someone was genuinely offended by it. Just don't assume that all those offended are just attention seeking.
Of course I would. I would never go out to offend or hurt anyone. One of my degrees included German history and I have studied and visited a lot of concentrations camps in Germany and Poland, which can be seen as some of the worst examples of anti-humanity, and these affected me to my core. I think we are on the same page regarding not wanting to hurt anyone, but there are a lot of young people who are attention seeking, who annoy the ... out of me.
This is why I like debate and discussion when carried out in the right tone (which you have very much done by the way). The best way to remove extreme views is to simply prove them wrong or, as may be the case there, find the middle ground as there often is one. In this case, if the chiefs kept the name but removed the iconography and tried to stop that awful, racist (and in that case I feel it is racist) chant and chop thing.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by jgriffin » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:26 pm

chris111 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:09 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:07 pm
Being a massive fan of the Caspian Tiger and sadly watching it brutally hunted into extinction and its habitat destroyed alongside many other species of tiger I find it disgusting that fans in our crowd can wear a tiger on their head like some sort of sick trophy! I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter,who is Leicesters local MP?
Think you’ve misread the tone of the discussion, Scott
Not unusual in that quarter.
I have non-white acquaintances in a massively white area (Lichfield/Burntwood). One had to move house because of overt racial harassment; several have suffered repeated harassment just walking through Lichfield (where two of them were born). "Go home, you're not wanted here, this is a white town" is not just the least of the things said or indeed written in the local community forums. Those being insulted have been informed they are easily offended etc etc, and have no right to complain, lest they are sent back to where they came from (Lichfield, Burntwood, Walsall, Birmingham, London, respectively).
Have we become insensitive to the feelings of others? Or are we being attacked by 'woke warriors' of the lentil eating, sandal wearing, wishy-washy liberal variety? Or is it just that for some people, change is too difficult to contemplate for one reason or another? Or is it even a left over from the Empire days when the answer was to despatch a battalion to teach the fuzzy-wuzzies a lesson? As a non-sandal wearing, non-veggie, non-pacifist 'wokie', the world is leaving many behind, and they resist, kicking and screaming. Accommodation takes little effort, you know. Just try.
BTW my Chiefs-fan ST holding siblings find both the headdresses and the chants puerile, the preoccupation of a few and not representative of their fans.
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Tigerbeat » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:29 pm

If we look back on history there are many things that were not right for this day and age. We cant erase history but we can educate everyone and try to raise awareness and change attitudes towards certain things. I believe that everything needs to be looked at in the context being used as to whether it is meant to be offensive or degrading. Fancy dress and naming roads or buildings does not always infer offence.
Everyone is entitled to their own views and I am very open to all people.
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Snowdrop » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:31 pm

TigerXV wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:18 pm
let's not forget the club's appropriation goes well beyond native headdresses worn by some supporters, chants and club logo. They have a Totem pole at the ground along with Wigwam bar, Mohawk bar, Apache Bar, Cheyenne Bar, Pow Wow bar.....need I go on? whilst they may have initially branded the club at a time of ignorance they have continued to develop the ground despite cultural appropriation becoming an important social issue to the point it is now a theme park stadium in the most distasteful way which has no place in a game that is trying to appeal globally. I appreciate that to rebrand will take time and investment and I am sure everyone would be happy if the club acknowledged the issue and announced a commitment to rebrand.
You do not speak for me on this. EC do not need to rebrand. They have their identity, they never intended to cause offence, and should be allowed to remain as they are.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by chris111 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:32 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:19 pm
ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:00 pm
You don't sound like a massive biggot, so I'm sure you would change your behavoir if someone was genuinely offended by it. Just don't assume that all those offended are just attention seeking.
Of course I would. I would never go out to offend or hurt anyone. One of my degrees included German history and I have studied and visited a lot of concentrations camps in Germany and Poland, which can be seen as some of the worst examples of anti-humanity, and these affected me to my core. I think we are on the same page regarding not wanting to hurt anyone, but there are a lot of young people who are attention seeking, who annoy the ... out of me.
Wouldn’t you agree that “attention seeking” is a good thing when it’s designed to raise wider awareness of issues that people feel are not well understood? And that it’s perhaps not easy to distinguish between this and narcissistic indulgence?

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Scott1 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:33 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:26 pm
chris111 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:09 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:07 pm
Being a massive fan of the Caspian Tiger and sadly watching it brutally hunted into extinction and its habitat destroyed alongside many other species of tiger I find it disgusting that fans in our crowd can wear a tiger on their head like some sort of sick trophy! I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter,who is Leicesters local MP?
Think you’ve misread the tone of the discussion, Scott
Not unusual in that quarter.
I have non-white acquaintances in a massively white area (Lichfield/Burntwood). One had to move house because of overt racial harassment; several have suffered repeated harassment just walking through Lichfield (where two of them were born). "Go home, you're not wanted here, this is a white town" is not just the least of the things said or indeed written in the local community forums. Those being insulted have been informed they are easily offended etc etc, and have no right to complain, lest they are sent back to where they came from (Lichfield, Burntwood, Walsall, Birmingham, London, respectively).
Have we become insensitive to the feelings of others? Or are we being attacked by 'woke warriors' of the lentil eating, sandal wearing, wishy-washy liberal variety? Or is it just that for some people, change is too difficult to contemplate for one reason or another? Or is it even a left over from the Empire days when the answer was to despatch a battalion to teach the fuzzy-wuzzies a lesson? As a non-sandal wearing, non-veggie, non-pacifist 'wokie', the world is leaving many behind, and they resist, kicking and screaming. Accommodation takes little effort, you know. Just try.
BTW my Chiefs-fan ST holding siblings find both the headdresses and the chants puerile, the preoccupation of a few and not representative of their fans.
That's disgusting,I've seen my fair share of racsim both ways and its shocking!

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Snowdrop » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:37 pm

chris111 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:09 pm
Scott1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:07 pm
Being a massive fan of the Caspian Tiger and sadly watching it brutally hunted into extinction and its habitat destroyed alongside many other species of tiger I find it disgusting that fans in our crowd can wear a tiger on their head like some sort of sick trophy! I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter,who is Leicesters local MP?
Think you’ve misread the tone of the discussion, Scott
No he hasn't. He is just trying to bring some perspective.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by johnthegriff » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:08 pm

As one who was born in 1944 I have been brought up watching on TV and in the cinema a diet of Westerns, the Sioux. Comanche, Apache etc were usually the baddies and if they weren't involved the ones in black hats were guilty, goodies wore white hats when they were killing people. Had a been inclined to homosexuality it was against the law, A young man I knew in the 60's was convicted when the police broke into the bedsit he shared with another man, I thought then and of course still do that what they did in their own home was their business. The law changed, times have changed and that is good. I enjoyed the Black & White Minstrel show on TV, I could not see what was offensive about that or about an actor blacking up to play Othello but I am not a black person.
I remember objecting when serving as a School Governor when a Labour Councillor attending our meeting had concerns about institutional racism and claimed that to be white was to be a racist, that is not correct I have seen racism by black people, Asian people and white people it is never right. I do however feel that if offence is not intended it should not be taken, it maybe an opportunity to educate the offender. When I think back to things we commonly said or believed back in my past I cringe at the thought of some of them. There are of course people that shout racism or other forms of prejudice where it does not actually exist and that is just as wrong as allowing offensive words and behavior to go unchallenged. I do admit though that it is sometimes fun to make 60's/70's style comments that absolutely appall my children and grandchildren but I am glad they are appalled.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by northerntiger » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:16 pm

You really don’t get it. I’ll bite and argue your point. Whatever Mandela may have done, it doesn’t/didn’t directly affect you. Using religious/cultural symbolism does affect people whose culture that is. Using a represention of a cross, for example, would clearly be offensive.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by mol2 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:45 pm

Have not Morris dancers been wearing feathers in their has for years? Who has the right to say culture cannnot be appropriated? Culture evolves wherever in the world you are. Societies interract and their cultures mingle.

I'm sure I'll melt a few of the snowflake gerneration but the term Chiefs cannot really be offensive as that is a word from the English dictionary rather than any of the native American languages.

Language can be used in a way that is intentionally offensive, language can be used in a way that is inadvertantly offensive and some people can choose to be offended irrespective of how the language was used.

So only those Sarries supporters with a genuine knighthood can dress up as knights for fear of offending the descendants of the crusaders? (Ok the one or 2 supporters that Sarries do have may not be aware that the knights were the ones fighting against the Saracens - a term from the middle ages that was loosely used to describe Muslims, Turks or Arabs) in the holy wars).

Naturally the RSPCA will be after us for using the name Tigers,
Bath for using the term rugby after their display at the weekend.

Joking aside I think George Orwell's 1984 should be compulsory reading in schools. I suspect a few who deride others for their use of reasonable or in their eyes unreasonable language might be shocked at how close the bone the present political climate is in terms of re-writing the dictionary to abolish Thought Speak and Thought Crime.
Last edited by mol2 on Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:07 pm

mol2 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:45 pm
Have not Morris dancers been wearing feathers in their has for years? Who has the right to say culture cannnot be appropriated? Culture evolves wherever in the world you are. Societies interract and their cultures mingle.

I'm sure I'll melt a few of the snowflake gerneration but the term Chiefs cannot really be offensive as that is a word from the English dictionary rather than any of the native American languages.

Language can be used in a way that is intentionally offensive, language can be used in a way that is inadvertantly offensive and some people can choose to be offended irrespective of how the language was used.

So only those Sarries supporters with a genuine knighthood can dress up as knights for fear of offending the descendants of the crusaders? (Ok the one or 2 supporters that Sarries do have may not be aware that the knights were the ones fighting against the Saracens - a term from the middle ages that was loosely used to describe Muslims, Turks or Arabs) in the holy wars).

Naturally the RSPCA will be after us for using the name Tigers,
Bath for using the term rugby after their display at the weekend.

Joking aside I think George Orwell's 1984 should be compulsory reading in schools. I suspect a few who deride others for their use of reasonable language might be shocked at how close the bone the present political climate is in terms of re-writing the dictionary to abolish Thought Speak and Thought Crime.
Excellent post, mol2

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