Rugby tonight

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TigerXV
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by TigerXV » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:18 pm

let's not forget the club's appropriation goes well beyond native headdresses worn by some supporters, chants and club logo. They have a Totem pole at the ground along with Wigwam bar, Mohawk bar, Apache Bar, Cheyenne Bar, Pow Wow bar.....need I go on? whilst they may have initially branded the club at a time of ignorance they have continued to develop the ground despite cultural appropriation becoming an important social issue to the point it is now a theme park stadium in the most distasteful way which has no place in a game that is trying to appeal globally. I appreciate that to rebrand will take time and investment and I am sure everyone would be happy if the club acknowledged the issue and announced a commitment to rebrand.

Pellsey
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:18 pm

John Lennon got shot dead because somebody was offended by his lyrics, even though John Lennon did not mean to cause this person offence. Who was right here? John Lennon or the person getting offended? This is how I see modern "offensive" culture. If you so choose, you can take offence to nearly anything.

GB72
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by GB72 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:27 pm

And there goes the quality of debate I mentioned with the chorus of being over sensitive, man up, get on with it. Can you not see the issue here. It was mentioned earlier that a poster chooses not to be offended and is happier because of it. That is great, but there are now people who are willing to stand up to attitudes that they see as wrong and make their voice heard and that is admirable. Do some take it too far, maybe but without people standing up to change, we would still be stuck with the 1970s attitudes I mentioned earlier.

What we have here is a club using an historic stereotype of native americans, appropriating their sacred headdress and using racial stereotypes in the crowd on a leval worse than Apu in the Simpsons and people are honestly saying that is OK. To liken that to other, more generic club logos and mascots is, frankly, laughable.

If there is no issue then there is no debate but there is a debate. Exeter could seek permission and consent from the relevant authorities and end that but they chose not to and so the scrutiny will continue.

ads
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by ads » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:42 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:07 pm
ads, I think some people actually like being offended, and they choose to be, however crazy that may seem.

I choose not to be offended by anything, and normally just think to myself that the person possibly trying to be offensive is either an idiot or just badly informed. This makes me happier personally.
Whilst I agree some can take things too far, I can only assume your unnoffendeness is easy because you generally don't have anything to be offended by. Lots of other people on the other hand have plenty to be offended by and I will try to help them stop people being offensive to them. The onus should be on the offended to change.

If native americans say that using the headdress and/or cheifs/tomohawk symbols to promote sporting teams is even slightly offensive, they should not be used. I believe they have raised concerns over other sporting teams which is why other have stopped using names or symbols.

Johnnyg
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Johnnyg » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:43 pm

Absolutely agree with you. The head-dress has quasi religious and sacred status to some native Americans. It isn't how we view it it is whether these people genuinely hold the views they do. I thought the two interviewees last night were measured and persuasive that using their tribal dress in this was was offensive to them. Exeter need to realise that this is not a battle of woke v Exeter, it is a genuine issue and deserves to be considered and not dismissed.

northerntiger
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by northerntiger » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:46 pm

It’s similar to an organisation using our highest award for valour as a symbol on a shirt. Oh, hang on.........

Pellsey
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:48 pm

ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:42 pm

If native americans say that using the headdress and/or cheifs/tomohawk symbols to promote sporting teams is even slightly offensive, they should not be used. I believe they have raised concerns over other sporting teams which is why other have stopped using names or symbols.
ok, ads, this is a good point well made. I hope we do not get to the point though that we can no longer do anything because somebody somewhere will find it offensive. The world is most definitely going in this direction.

Tigers86asw
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Tigers86asw » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:54 pm

GB72 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:27 pm
And there goes the quality of debate I mentioned with the chorus of being over sensitive, man up, get on with it. Can you not see the issue here. It was mentioned earlier that a poster chooses not to be offended and is happier because of it. That is great, but there are now people who are willing to stand up to attitudes that they see as wrong and make their voice heard and that is admirable. Do some take it too far, maybe but without people standing up to change, we would still be stuck with the 1970s attitudes I mentioned earlier.

What we have here is a club using an historic stereotype of native americans, appropriating their sacred headdress and using racial stereotypes in the crowd on a leval worse than Apu in the Simpsons and people are honestly saying that is OK. To liken that to other, more generic club logos and mascots is, frankly, laughable.

If there is no issue then there is no debate but there is a debate. Exeter could seek permission and consent from the relevant authorities and end that but they chose not to and so the scrutiny will continue.
Spot on

chris111
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by chris111 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:57 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:10 pm
You could argue that a lot of the Facebook generation are complete drama queens, rather than being "sensitive"...

Pellsey, I understand that it can sometimes be uncomfortable to face up to being asked to change certain types of behaviour and language because it causes upset to others. I’ve been through that myself as a rural working-class boy from the Fens, growing up in the 1960s/70s, what I then saw as normal I now see as racist, misogynist and homophobic. When times and environments change, there are two choices; change or don’t change accordingly.
I chose the former; it took a while for it to become natural and I made mistakes along the way - and, yes, there were times when I became a little exasperated when having just got around to using more generally acceptable language - social mores changed again! I’m still learning and adapting - I confess that I’m not quite there yet with gender fluidity and pronoun choice, but as I meet and talk with more and more non-binary people it’s coming. My kids are great with educating me on this, as non-binary identity feels completely ordinary and unremarkable to them.

I understand that others find these matters so unsettling that they resist change entirely, and end up resenting those who ask them to change. I find this reaction sad and disappointing, however - life feels so much better if you actually reach out and try to understand others’ perspectives. More importantly, the ‘anti-woke, anti-PC’ discourse provides cover for those who actively enjoy causing others discomfort. I hasten to add that I’m not accusing anyone on this forum of acting in bad faith in this way - but I do believe that if you take the line that your right to speak without consideration for the feelings of others around you is a fundamental right, you are providing encouragement for others with more malign motives.

I know we ‘woke warriors’ are frequently accused of being lacking in a sense of proportion and in a perpetual state of outrage. It doesn’t actually feel like that on this side of the culture war…ironically, from where I stand it’s the ‘other side’ who seem determined to be offended by the most trivial of things (“it’s an outrage, blah blah, how dare they make me change”, “leave my statues alone”, “take that white poppy off it’s an insult, blah blah”.).

So, returning (briefly!) back to the Chiefs…I suspect precious few people (indigenous Americans or otherwise) are actually offended or outraged. More commonly, they just find it rather crass and impolite - and that it would be more dignified for Exeter to move on and accept that it doesn’t really reflect current social values.

ads
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by ads » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:00 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:48 pm
ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:42 pm

If native americans say that using the headdress and/or cheifs/tomohawk symbols to promote sporting teams is even slightly offensive, they should not be used. I believe they have raised concerns over other sporting teams which is why other have stopped using names or symbols.
ok, ads, this is a good point well made. I hope we do not get to the point though that we can no longer do anything because somebody somewhere will find it offensive. The world is most definitely going in this direction.
I really don't think it is. It may seem a bit like that as its a very recent phenomenon, but people should always feel they can call out offensive language and behavoir with the full support of those around them. That is just generally being a decent person. You don't sound like a massive biggot, so I'm sure you would change your behavoir if someone was genuinely offended by it. Just don't assume that all those offended are just attention seeking.
We need huge change in the world for proper inclusivity and equality, and the younger generations (i'm 45) are driving this. I hope the world my kids grow in to, and thier kids, is a much more inclusive, equal and accepting one than I have grown up in. If that takes a lot of shouting now, then so be it.

Anyway my lunch break is done now and should really get some work done.....

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Noggs » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:02 pm

Johnnyg wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:43 pm
Absolutely agree with you. The head-dress has quasi religious and sacred status to some native Americans. It isn't how we view it it is whether these people genuinely hold the views they do. I thought the two interviewees last night were measured and persuasive that using their tribal dress in this was was offensive to them. Exeter need to realise that this is not a battle of woke v Exeter, it is a genuine issue and deserves to be considered and not dismissed.
Fully agree. The interviews with the North American Native Indian representatives were very enlightening (at least to me) and I had never considered the 'religious' and merit aspects of the headdress and the role it plays in their historic way of life. If Spurs fans all wore big black hats with false curly ringlets hanging down there would be outrage from the Jewish community and rightly so. Why then is it OK for Exeter to wear 'copies' of Native Indian head wear.

Society has moved on since Exeter took their decision to brand the club and in the end, as has happened with a number of sports clubs in the US, I believe they will need to re-brand. Hopefully this will be sooner rather than later.
Life can be unpredictable, so eat your pudding first!

Scott1
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Scott1 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:07 pm

Being a massive fan of the Caspian Tiger and sadly watching it brutally hunted into extinction and its habitat destroyed alongside many other species of tiger I find it disgusting that fans in our crowd can wear a tiger on their head like some sort of sick trophy! I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter,who is Leicesters local MP?

chris111
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by chris111 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:09 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:07 pm
Being a massive fan of the Caspian Tiger and sadly watching it brutally hunted into extinction and its habitat destroyed alongside many other species of tiger I find it disgusting that fans in our crowd can wear a tiger on their head like some sort of sick trophy! I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter,who is Leicesters local MP?
Think you’ve misread the tone of the discussion, Scott

ads
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by ads » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:10 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:07 pm
Being a massive fan of the Caspian Tiger and sadly watching it brutally hunted into extinction and its habitat destroyed alongside many other species of tiger I find it disgusting that fans in our crowd can wear a tiger on their head like some sort of sick trophy! I'm gonna write a strongly worded letter,who is Leicesters local MP?
This guy doesn't get it, and isn't even trying....

Scott1
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Scott1 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:10 pm

While I'm there im going to petition them to change the name of the park I have to walk through every time I go to Welford Road. Mandela was directly and indirectly involved in terrorist atrocities that took many lives and me and my Son shouldn't have to think about that every time we go to see a rugby match. I can go on all day if you want?!

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