Rugby tonight

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GB72
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by GB72 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:00 am

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:46 am
ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:13 am
chris111 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:09 am

Sadly, Dunc, some people do have a problem with treat people with common politeness - they feel their own right to be boorish and insensitive is what matters. Fortunately it’s largely a generational thing - younger people are mostly getting it!
This guy gets it!
Disagree. People of my generation just did not get offended anything like as easily. I would argue that people are far too sensitive nowadays rather than my generation being insensitive. Virtually anything can offend the younger generation, if they so wish. It's pathetic.
I was brought up in the 70s and, to be honest, it is pretty disgraceful what was seen as comedy at the time and I will admit that, then, I found none of it offensive. It was. TV was racist, homophobic, sexist and no end of other things but I did not know better at the time and so took no offense. That is not a sign of a better time, just a sign of a significant deficit in understanding and esducation. Now I understand far better just how bad much of it was and so am far happier to see the increased levels of sensitivity. There is nothing wrong with the current generation, there was a lot wrong with the attitude of my generation.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:07 am

GB72 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:00 am
Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:46 am
ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:13 am


This guy gets it!
Disagree. People of my generation just did not get offended anything like as easily. I would argue that people are far too sensitive nowadays rather than my generation being insensitive. Virtually anything can offend the younger generation, if they so wish. It's pathetic.
I was brought up in the 70s and, to be honest, it is pretty disgraceful what was seen as comedy at the time and I will admit that, then, I found none of it offensive. It was. TV was racist, homophobic, sexist and no end of other things but I did not know better at the time and so took no offense. That is not a sign of a better time, just a sign of a significant deficit in understanding and esducation. Now I understand far better just how bad much of it was and so am far happier to see the increased levels of sensitivity. There is nothing wrong with the current generation, there was a lot wrong with the attitude of my generation.
To be honest, I think there is a middle ground somewhere. I do know what you mean about certain things from 70s, but with the view of the younger generation, it is shocking. I still believe the younger generation are way too sensitive. I hate the feeling of walking on eggshells though.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by JeffBadland » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:11 am

The iconography used by teams such as Exeter (tomohawks and chants) draws upon the image of Native Americans as warlike and uncivilized, which has historically been used to airbrush the genocide of natives. Obviously, that's profoundly offensive to their descendants, and they object to it.

The reason we're now having these debates is because white people have less power to decide what is offensive to other people. That's clearly a good thing, because white people like me have limited knowledge of the experience of other races.

GB72
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by GB72 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:20 am

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:07 am
GB72 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:00 am
Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:46 am


Disagree. People of my generation just did not get offended anything like as easily. I would argue that people are far too sensitive nowadays rather than my generation being insensitive. Virtually anything can offend the younger generation, if they so wish. It's pathetic.
I was brought up in the 70s and, to be honest, it is pretty disgraceful what was seen as comedy at the time and I will admit that, then, I found none of it offensive. It was. TV was racist, homophobic, sexist and no end of other things but I did not know better at the time and so took no offense. That is not a sign of a better time, just a sign of a significant deficit in understanding and esducation. Now I understand far better just how bad much of it was and so am far happier to see the increased levels of sensitivity. There is nothing wrong with the current generation, there was a lot wrong with the attitude of my generation.
To be honest, I think there is a middle ground somewhere. I do know what you mean about certain things from 70s, but with the view of the younger generation, it is shocking. I still believe the younger generation are way too sensitive. I hate the feeling of walking on eggshells though.
I do not walk on eggshells, I simply ask if the opportunity arises and that is the very simple answer to the Exeter problem. They ask the relevant parties if they feel that their actions are offensive or constitute cultural appropriation. If they think it does, time for a change of name and attitude, if they say no then keep doing what they are doing.

It is the unwillingness to obtain an answer through the correct channels that frustrates as the opinion of you, me, the club or their supporters does not matter but it shoudl be pretty striaghtforward to get the opinions of those that do.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by tigerburnie » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:27 am

Sadly people( and I mean all people) are inherently tribal and with that comes racism, lets not forget that racism is not just against people of other colour either, the Nazis were racist against many people who were the same colour as themselves. I am of white origin but have been the subject of racist comments through various times in my life. This is not a rugby problem nor even a television problem, it is people not being able to live and let live, the former Yugoslavia is a recent(ish) case in point.
This so called "woke" behaviour is both tribal and counter productive, but it will continue to grow, we should learn from our past behaviour and not make the same mistakes, but sadly I fear the human race seems to be incapable of that.
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:30 am

chewbacca wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:14 am
I am offended by the wasps use of French in their chant. Allez Allez Allez. I wasn't aware they were a French team so perhaps they shouldn't misappropriate another nations language.
That's the thing though, they're not complaining about their culture being used.

They're complaining about it being done in a degrading manner.


You find me a French person who objects to Allez, Allez, Allez being used because it offends them.

Conversely though Native Americans consider for example the headdress to be a sacred item that has to be earnt over many years and declares an honorary status to a person that wears it.

So when they see it (and rugby is a growing sport in the USA, there are native American clubs e.g. https://rootsrugby.org/ ) and they state it is offensive to them, despite being based on their history, they have the right to be heard.


If I go to a meal with people from a different culture, I potentially may offend them unintentionally, that's not to bad, if I don't change my behaviour and keep repeating the "offensive" behaviour then I would generally be considered quite rude wouldn't I?

Exeter using Native American iconography isn't wrong or offensive, but now that culture has said the manner they use it IS offensive and explained why. Personally I'd do one of two things.

1 - work out what iconography would be considered appropriate for the people who's iconography you use.

2 - swap to a different iconography set e.g. the Dumnoni tribe based in that are who supposedly they developed the "Cheifs" name from.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by GB72 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:35 am

Can I just say that there have been good points made on both sides and this is an important discussion to have. What is gratifying is the well argued and adult manner in which this discussion is being carried out. If only a level of respect between individuals of opposing views were shown in all debate then the world would have far less problems.

Whilst pretty off topic, I hope the Mods let this discussion continue.

GB72
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by GB72 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:37 am

As for why Exeter have not approached Native American bodies to discuss the issue, the cynic in me sees 2 reasons:

1. They would be asked to re-brand and would come out of it well if they decided not to.
2. They expect to be asked to make a contribution each year, perhaps to support a Native American charity and that will cost the club.

Still, just seems odd that a problem with a very easy solution is not solved.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by ashleytiger » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:55 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:44 am
Ian Cockerill, long time Tiger's fan and a voice on Radio Leicester shot me down in flames, he posed the question " If in the unlikely event Worcester Warriors asked their supporters to black up and come as Zulu Warriors would I call that racist?" and the answer was yes I would.
As the Worcester Warriors logo seems to be the depiction of either a Greek, Viking or Anglo Saxon (Sutton Hoo) helmet, one wonders which culture should be offended. :smt017

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:59 am

There are 2 different things here.. being racist / homophobic / sexist, to differentiate anybody by their race / sex etc etc is inherantly wrong and should be stopped. In the case of Exeter, I do not understand personally how imitating a race in order to essentially promote themselves can be seen as racist. There is nobody poking fun at Indians here, at least as far as I know, in the same way as the Sarries are not poking fun an Maroccans, or Leicester are not poking fun at big cats ;)

The other thing is being offended. This is a personal thing, where the current generation need to be considerably less sensitive IMHO.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by ads » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:04 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:07 am

To be honest, I think there is a middle ground somewhere. I do know what you mean about certain things from 70s, but with the view of the younger generation, it is shocking. I still believe the younger generation are way too sensitive. I hate the feeling of walking on eggshells though.
It's not that the younger generation are more sensitive, its that they are more willing to call stuff out. In the past when people spoke up they were shouted down, ignored, abused, laughed at or just told to 'man up'!

Nowadays theres so many more people wiling to call offensive behavoir out. Not just younger people.

The bit I have highlighted in your text shows one of the problems though. It isn't about you! You don't like having to be careful. Other people don't like being told how to feel. Get over yourself and start thinking of others.

ads
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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by ads » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:06 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:59 am

The other thing is being offended. This is a personal thing, where the current generation need to be considerably less sensitive IMHO.
Or the older generations need to be more sensitive. IMHO of course....

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:07 pm

ads, I think some people actually like being offended, and they choose to be, however crazy that may seem.

I choose not to be offended by anything, and normally just think to myself that the person possibly trying to be offensive is either an idiot or just badly informed. This makes me happier personally.

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:08 pm

ads wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:06 pm
Pellsey wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:59 am

The other thing is being offended. This is a personal thing, where the current generation need to be considerably less sensitive IMHO.
Or the older generations need to be more sensitive. IMHO of course....
I would disagree, of course. But you are completely welcome to your opinion :smt038

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Re: Rugby tonight

Post by Pellsey » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:10 pm

You could argue that a lot of the Facebook generation are complete drama queens, rather than being "sensitive"...

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