Exeter Chiefs

Non- Rugby Related Chat. Please note that this forum is moderated. If you wish to make comments for the club's attention please do so in Fans Forum and not this one.

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Tigers Press Office, Rizzo, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
h's dad
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:19 pm
Location: In front of pc

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by h's dad » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:54 pm

Thanks for this. I never said there there weren't any American Indians who were genuinely offended. As another poster asked previously, what proportion of the affected group needs to be offended and object for action to be taken?

The letter tears at the heartstrings when it says 'Until 1960, indigenous people didn't have voting rights as prior to that we weren't considered "human"'. I was so shocked and upset I looked up the detail for both the United States and Canada. It really doesn't seem to be true for either country.

While American Indians have been horrifically, really horrifically treated by both the US and Canada, please let's stick to facts.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

wellstiger
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 896
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by wellstiger » Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:59 pm

Please can we now leave this debate to every ones self consciousness.
Exeter have has their review and a decision has been made (Rightly or wrongly).
I am all for education and welcome debate and open to learning.
However I seriously object to being micro managed by the thought police and the argument that "My way is the only true way"

Now I'm going to get off my soap box. Turn the noise down and revel in the anticipation OF MY OWN CLUB. I believe that the "sometimes" hostile debating will turn Exeter fans ( who have enlarge ) admired Tigers and what we stood for, bitter.
I for one welcome all clubs and supporters equally. We all have the same human traits,frailties and consciences. :smt022

h's dad
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:19 pm
Location: In front of pc

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by h's dad » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:04 pm

ourla wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:20 pm
they are seen as items of great spiritual and political importance, only to be worn by those who have earned the right and honour through formal recognition by their people.
My bold.

I just don't think they have any legitimate reason to use the headdress as a symbol but worse than that they've taken something that actually as real meaning to those who wear it.

I just don't get it to be honest.
[/quote]
Then why do American Indians make and sell them to outsiders?

By the same token isn't having a Beefeater on a bottle of gin or as a cartoon caricature on a burger equally offensive. Beefeaters are people who have put in 22+ years of exemplary service to their country. Don't they have an equal right to recognition and dignity?
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

DeadlyDunc
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 594
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:05 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by DeadlyDunc » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:11 pm

h's dad wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:04 pm
ourla wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:20 pm
they are seen as items of great spiritual and political importance, only to be worn by those who have earned the right and honour through formal recognition by their people.
My bold.

I just don't think they have any legitimate reason to use the headdress as a symbol but worse than that they've taken something that actually as real meaning to those who wear it.

I just don't get it to be honest.
Then why do American Indians make and sell them to outsiders?

By the same token isn't having a Beefeater on a bottle of gin or as a cartoon caricature on a burger equally offensive. Beefeaters are people who have put in 22+ years of exemplary service to their country. Don't they have an equal right to recognition and dignity?
[/quote]

Wow

That’s quite the take

h's dad
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:19 pm
Location: In front of pc

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by h's dad » Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:19 pm

DeadlyDunc wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:11 pm
h's dad wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:04 pm
ourla wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:20 pm
they are seen as items of great spiritual and political importance, only to be worn by those who have earned the right and honour through formal recognition by their people.
My bold.

I just don't think they have any legitimate reason to use the headdress as a symbol but worse than that they've taken something that actually as real meaning to those who wear it.

I just don't get it to be honest.
Then why do American Indians make and sell them to outsiders?

By the same token isn't having a Beefeater on a bottle of gin or as a cartoon caricature on a burger equally offensive. Beefeaters are people who have put in 22+ years of exemplary service to their country. Don't they have an equal right to recognition and dignity?
Wow

That’s quite the take
[/quote]
Would you care to clarify? Or is that your best argument?
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3735
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by ourla » Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:29 pm

h's dad wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:04 pm
ourla wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:20 pm
they are seen as items of great spiritual and political importance, only to be worn by those who have earned the right and honour through formal recognition by their people.
My bold.

I just don't think they have any legitimate reason to use the headdress as a symbol but worse than that they've taken something that actually as real meaning to those who wear it.

I just don't get it to be honest.
Then why do American Indians make and sell them to outsiders?
Do they?
You're either in or you're out

VernonAtrium
Top Cat
Top Cat
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:39 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by VernonAtrium » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:17 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:17 pm
While you all argue pointlessly, what a marketing opportunity has been missed!
Far more used in the Exe area is the term "lover" or "my lover", as a familiarity, not a statement of fact.
Rebrand as Exeter Lovers - not only a tourist coup but infinite possibilities for marketing campaigns and images. :smt052
I have duly reported this post, as it is, quite clearly, absolute genius.

h's dad
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:19 pm
Location: In front of pc

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by h's dad » Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:06 am

ourla wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:29 pm
h's dad wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:04 pm
ourla wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:20 pm


My bold.

I just don't think they have any legitimate reason to use the headdress as a symbol but worse than that they've taken something that actually as real meaning to those who wear it.

I just don't get it to be honest.
Then why do American Indians make and sell them to outsiders?
Do they?
Yes.

To expand, it is easy to find a number of businesses that advertise headdresses with certificate of authenticity and the name and registered tribal affiliation details of the maker. Of course this may be flim flam but if it was I would have expected the activists to have made a high profile case in the US courts out of it with a higher priority than complaining about Exeter Chiefs.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

kk20gb30
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2816
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 1:01 pm
Location: Over The Hills & Far Away

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by kk20gb30 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:45 am

Seems we wont be hearing the 'Tomahawk Chop' chant come re-start as BT opt to remove it from the simulated crowd noise:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/exeter-c ... y-restart/
Seemingly heading rapidly toward senility .....Not long or far to go now , in fact, getting worse daily.....

biffer
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1575
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:35 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by biffer » Fri Aug 20, 2021 12:11 pm

I fully accept that there was never any intent to offend when Exeter introduced their branding. However, times change. the movement to remove these mascots from sports branding has grown significantly over the last twenty years and will continue to do so, so there is no point in Exeter sticking their heads in the sand.

If Premiership Rugby wants to increase its market in North America, Exeter's branding is an albatross which will prevent it growing to the extent it could. It also gives a guilt by association tarnish to the rest of us, particularly if we're allowing native dress, the war chant etc into our grounds as well.

The overwhelming majority of Native American organisations consider this kind of stereotyping to have a negative effect, and would like it to be removed. Yes, there are some that don't but the overwhelming majority do.

Even if you're of the persuasion that is all woke nonsense, doesn't it just strike you as :censored: rude? Just grabbing things that are important to other people and deciding to make money off them without any consultation, discussion or permission?

Leicester's ground regulations / conditions of entry have statements in them about respect, discrimination etc. If we allow people in wearing parody native American clothing, we're breaching those regs.

biffer
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1575
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:35 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by biffer » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:26 pm

Wasps Twitter account has confirmed they’re reviewing their position on this and has emphasised that they do not tolerate discrimination.

Scott1
Super User
Super User
Posts: 11359
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by Scott1 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm

I’ve just read a piece about Cambridge University having to explain the “whiteness” of their sculpture casts. Where does this all end?!

chris111
Bronze Member
Bronze Member
Posts: 413
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:15 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by chris111 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:51 am

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm
I’ve just read a piece about Cambridge University having to explain the “whiteness” of their sculpture casts. Where does this all end?!
“When will it all end?” is all too often code for asking “why did this ever start?” - although I’m not insinuating that’s what you mean to say, Scott!

Most people want it to end at a line where their own values/prejudices are drawn, and even woke warriors like me have a line. The article I read this morning about PETA lobbying to have the name of the town of Fishkill (in upstate NY) to Fishsave was certainly way over my line! For some, there should be no line, essentially saying “I demand the right to say whatever I like no matter how insulting it is to some others” - in fact, the very fact of it being insulting to people of whom they disapprove is their motivation for saying it.

Exeter RFC branding, as it happens, is definitely on the wrong side of my line - I find it crass, embarrassing and completely unnecessary. Not offensive, I hasten to add. Those who stand by the right to use whatever insulting language they want often accuse others of being snowflakes in a permanent state of outrage. I am not offended, however, by the sight of paunchy middle-aged beer boys from Tiverton in feathered headdress, I just find it puerile, to the extent that it detracts from my enjoyment of watching a fine rugby side playing.

Scott1
Super User
Super User
Posts: 11359
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:03 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by Scott1 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:02 am

chris111 wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 9:51 am
Scott1 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm
I’ve just read a piece about Cambridge University having to explain the “whiteness” of their sculpture casts. Where does this all end?!
“When will it all end?” is all too often code for asking “why did this ever start?” - although I’m not insinuating that’s what you mean to say, Scott!

Most people want it to end at a line where their own values/prejudices are drawn, and even woke warriors like me have a line. The article I read this morning about PETA lobbying to have the name of the town of Fishkill (in upstate NY) to Fishsave was certainly way over my line! For some, there should be no line, essentially saying “I demand the right to say whatever I like no matter how insulting it is to some others” - in fact, the very fact of it being insulting to people of whom they disapprove is their motivation for saying it.

Exeter RFC branding, as it happens, is definitely on the wrong side of my line - I find it crass, embarrassing and completely unnecessary. Not offensive, I hasten to add. Those who stand by the right to use whatever insulting language they want often accuse others of being snowflakes in a permanent state of outrage. I am not offended, however, by the sight of paunchy middle-aged beer boys from Tiverton in feathered headdress, I just find it puerile, to the extent that it detracts from my enjoyment of watching a fine rugby side playing.
You lost me at fine rugby side 😉

Old Hob
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3314
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:15 pm

Re: Exeter Chiefs

Post by Old Hob » Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:14 am

There is an excellent review in last Saturday's Times of the book "The Status Game" in which competition to be more woke, more outraged is just a variation of the search for approbation and status. In "virtue games" maintenance of conformity, correct beliefs and behaviours become particularly important. Virtue games are complex because the people playing believe they are motivated by goodness rather than seeking status and approval (or, at least, avoiding disapproval). The right suffered less from this than the left until Thatcher asked the infamous question "Is he one of us?" forcing people to overtly state their beliefs rather than passively assume that everyone in the room believed roughly the same thing. The left has always had the problem - Clause 4, tanks in Hungary in '56, etc etc.
But...
Last edited by Old Hob on Wed Aug 25, 2021 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest