Breivik Trial

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Phil B
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Breivik Trial

Post by Phil B » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:45 pm

He killed 77 people. He admits it. He admits a criminal act. He defends himself by suggesting he is at war. He asks for acquittal.

Why the trial? He admits he murdered 77 people. There can be no justification based on any reasonable sense of personal morality.

Can someone explain why the people of Norway are expected to go through this farce, simply so they can decide whether he goes to prison, or a mental hospital?

I am missing the point. Help!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Nailsworthstiger » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:29 pm

No he shouldn't go to prison and no he shouldn't go to a mental hospital either.

He should go to the Firing Squad. Any b'stard that carries out these acts do not deserve to live.

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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Phil B » Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:45 pm

I don't think Norway has the death penalty. That is a problem. Personally, I would have him executed, in public. But we have moved on, apparently. Not from crime; just punishment.
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kingol22
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by kingol22 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:02 pm

It is probably down to that stupid invention of human rights :smt013

He should face the death penalty as should others that commit acts of this kind.

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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Rizzo » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:25 pm

Phil B wrote:I don't think Norway has the death penalty. That is a problem. Personally, I would have him executed, in public. But we have moved on, apparently. Not from crime; just punishment.

One of my longstanding penfriends is Norwegian. She is most unhappy about the coverage of this trial, saying she and many of her compatriots feel this is giving the murderer an open stage to profess his "manifesto" and in effect giving him the publicity and notoriety he craves. The feeling is that any trial should have been behind closed doors with only the witnesses, families etc and no media.

Capital punishment was abolished in 1979 in Norway, and they are generally opposed to it elsewhere in the world as well. The question is - if this man is deemed insane he goes to a mental detainment centre indefinitely until considered no longer a public threat. If he is deemed sane, he would go to prison for 20+ years. He himself has said he wants to be considered sane, would do it again, and that he doesn't recognise the trial as being able to try him.

My personal feeling is that he is insane, but intelligent and manipulative and if detained in a mental health secure unit he may well be able to put on an act and convince the authorities that he is now "better" and no longer a danger. On that basis, I'd lock him up for 20 years or hopefully more. I wish they could give consecutive life sentences like they do in the USA. Lock him up for 20 years for each life he took.
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Nailsworthstiger
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Nailsworthstiger » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:56 pm

I don't think he is insane Rizzo. Insane people don't always know what they are doing, but he certainly does.

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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Old Hob » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:55 pm

OK
I will answer the original question. "Why the trial?"

A crime, any crime, has been committed. It may be small it may be large but certain facts have to be discovered. Who committed this crime and what other relevant factors were involved?

A process of legal proof/ disproof has to be gone through. Saying "We all kno e dun it - string im up" is what English law and other civilised legal systems have been fighting against since the Middle Ages. Impartial proof is required. In this case, it will be fairly easy to provide. However, a confession is not proof (I might be protecting someone else). Cameras DO lie, particularly nowadays with special effects. "It was in the papers so e must ave dun it" - I refer you to the murder in Bristol where the "Weird bloke with the long hair" was "Obviously guilty".

Let the Norwegian system take its course.
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Kinoulton » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:03 am

There certainly has to be a trial, and the judge and jury have to be accountable, but it is worrying that if it is virtually conducted in the media then it gives these monsters the publicity they seek.

There was a horrid precedent in the English courts when a man accused of r*** conducted his own defence and used this as an opportunity to put his victim in the witness stand and take the poor girl step by step through all the things he'd done to her, which of course the News Of The World couldn't wait to publish with some mock outrage.

We have a nutty old task to deal with now. Because the media is so powerful and widespread, people can commit a crime to become famous or infamous, and it works.
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by WhitecapTiger » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:23 am

Phil B wrote:I don't think Norway has the death penalty. That is a problem. Personally, I would have him executed, in public. But we have moved on, apparently. Not from crime; just punishment.
Norway does not have the death Penalty available. One of the lay judges on the case has been removed as he posted on Facebook last year (after the attacks but before trial obviously) that Breivik should face the death penalty.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... issed.html

What would be the bigger (subsequent) travesty (excepting of course the atrocity he committed that has led to this state of affairs), that Breivik is put on trial, as is his right(nothing really to do with 'uman rights)? or that Breivik is acquitted on a technicality because of social media / media / press comments made by people who should know better, which may (I don't think it will) lead to mis-trials? I doubt many will buy into his rantings and may, just may, lead to more resolve against people like him.
Old Hob wrote:OK
I will answer the original question. "Why the trial?"

A crime, any crime, has been committed. It may be small it may be large but certain facts have to be discovered. Who committed this crime and what other relevant factors were involved?

A process of legal proof/ disproof has to be gone through. Saying "We all kno e dun it - string im up" is what English law and other civilised legal systems have been fighting against since the Middle Ages. Impartial proof is required. In this case, it will be fairly easy to provide. However, a confession is not proof (I might be protecting someone else). Cameras DO lie, particularly nowadays with special effects. "It was in the papers so e must ave dun it" - I refer you to the murder in Bristol where the "Weird bloke with the long hair" was "Obviously guilty".

Let the Norwegian system take its course.
Spot on OldHob, fully agree.
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Skin_and_Muscle
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:43 pm

I endorse what Old Hob has said.

Me and a friend were discussing this point the other day, finding it particularly odd that the British media were getting so irate and emotive about the fact that this requires such a thorough trial and that Breivik is allowed to testify.

The Norwegians that were interviewed essentially said they wouldn't want it any other way, let correct (and just) procedures be as they are.

On another point, I might have been cast as an apologist before now (re Moat) and I do generally feel a little uneasy about such simplistic condemnation of criminals as bad people but have to say I've been finding it difficult to apply the same sort of thought here.

This is a man who is quite clearly not insane; he is calculative, manipulative and thoughtful (if you know what I mean). The smirk he gave around the time when the judge WCT referred to was removed was chilling.

There may well be something VERY deep down that can help people piece together how such a person could exist. It seems apparent, though, that he is one of very few truly bad people out there.
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Daveyboy » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:02 am

The facts are straightforward.

A Norwegian committed crimes against Norwegians in Norway.

We can observe but have no right to interfere / raise objections about a sovereign process. The trial rightly should (and will) go ahead.
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Rizzo » Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:08 pm

Just chatting to my Norwegian penfriend about this. she says

"Watching the news in Norway now is painful..and revolting...the deranged monster has yet again managed to shake ppl up with his deranged comments in court.. this monster must NEVER AGAIN EVER see or even FEEL freedom even for one second...

The general feel here in Norway from what I can gather is that we don't really WANT to hear this madmonster's ramblings and deranged comments. So I for one agree with you, if he were to be able to spread his deranged comments to the media it would be a stage for him to spread his venom. It's bad enough with the comments the media does quote really. So I am happy that the coverage isn't THAT extreme. Heck I wish there was LESS coverage of this. I HATE seeing that face in the media constantly here... Yes there is reason to discuss why cencor this, etc..but there is just so much more to considerate rather than the freedom of the press etc...freedom of the press also means a huge responsibility and consideration to how extremely difficult this is to those who are directly affected by this horrible terror."

She says despite the strong feelings in her country, most people say they are still against capital punishment, but they would like to see this man locked up for many many years without parole.
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by fleabane » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:59 am

The Norwegian legal process is more open than ours, and all the better for it. The judges have limited what may be covered on television in order to limit B's opportunity to broadcast his message.

Even here, the facts of the case are presented by the Prosecutor, and the defence puts it's own case forward in the event of a guilty plea. There has to be a hearing for the bench or judge to make a decision on the appropriate sentence. In this case, the decision seems to revolve around B's sanity (and where he will serve a sentence), at the time of committing the offences to which he has pleaded.
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Kinoulton » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:02 pm

Even as a kid, I was shaken by the Moors murders and in one of those "probably a coincidence" moments I freaked out my dad because I'd sensed it had happened before it even hit the papers.

But in those days, the true horror of the deaths was reported in a straightforward and none sensational way by a press that was worthy in those days, and the two monsters who committed the crime were not allowed the oxygen of publicity.

I thought there was a marked contrasts when the Wests' attrocities were uncovered and it seemed as though the terrible suffering of their victims was gushed out to all and sundry for no good reason.
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Re: Breivik Trial

Post by Phil B » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:33 pm

Taken from the BBC website:

Anders Behring Breivik has described how he shot people who were "begging for their lives" during his island rampage in which dozens died last July.

Testifying before an Oslo court, he described seeing people curled up and "completely paralysed" as he reloaded his weapon and shot them in the head

This trial disgusts me, frankly. He admits he murdered 77 people. Surely that is enough.
I could agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

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