Independence for Scotland?

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Bill W (2)
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by Bill W (2) » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:18 pm

biffer wrote:If you believe the Daily Mail, those things are true. In the real world, they're not.
I don't read it - sorry cannot help you with that!
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by DickyP » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:02 am

Actually Bill and biffer are both right if Scotland joins the EU - any new country joing the EU doe's have to join the Euro and the Schengen agreement.

However, the joining the euro doesn't have to be immediate but is compulsory. As to using Sterling there is the precedent of other minor countries unilaterally adopting another country's currency (eg, Kosovo, Andorra, Montenegro, Mauritius using the euro, and Panama and Ecudor the US Dollar). The problem would be one of printing and minting. Practically can you imagine how much worse than even now the acceptance problems for Scottish notes in English shops would become.

More intriguing is the Schengen Agreement which has no precedent or provision for not being immediate, and has no provision for a long term non-adoption as explicitly only UK and Ireland have an opt-out (where the agreement was based on us being islands with no land borders with Schengen partners). Thus Schengen and an independent Scotland is, of course, and absolute nonsense and would have to be addressed.

Why Scotland would want to join the Euro at present is another completely different discussion and reminds me of the local in Tallin, Estonia who joined the euro on 1 Jan 2011 who described the decision to me as akin to voluntarily getting onto the Titanic after it had hit the iceberg!
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by biffer » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:05 pm

DickyP wrote:Actually Bill and biffer are both right if Scotland joins the EU - any new country joing the EU doe's have to join the Euro and the Schengen agreement.

However, the joining the euro doesn't have to be immediate but is compulsory. As to using Sterling there is the precedent of other minor countries unilaterally adopting another country's currency (eg, Kosovo, Andorra, Montenegro, Mauritius using the euro, and Panama and Ecudor the US Dollar). The problem would be one of printing and minting. Practically can you imagine how much worse than even now the acceptance problems for Scottish notes in English shops would become.

More intriguing is the Schengen Agreement which has no precedent or provision for not being immediate, and has no provision for a long term non-adoption as explicitly only UK and Ireland have an opt-out (where the agreement was based on us being islands with no land borders with Schengen partners). Thus Schengen and an independent Scotland is, of course, and absolute nonsense and would have to be addressed.

Why Scotland would want to join the Euro at present is another completely different discussion and reminds me of the local in Tallin, Estonia who joined the euro on 1 Jan 2011 who described the decision to me as akin to voluntarily getting onto the Titanic after it had hit the iceberg!

It's actually slightly more complex than that for two reasons. Like it or not, Scotland is currently part of the European Union. It's unclear at the moment whether a country within the European Union which breaks up would have to reapply on the same terms as a new member. This applies both to an independent Scotland and to the remaining UK. If a treaty is with an entity which no longer exists, why would one side of the entity be allowed to keep all rights and treaties while the other wouldn't? From a legal point of view, it will be the UK parliament which breaks up the UK as it's the only entity which can do that.

Also, all that a new member has to do is join ERM II, which commits it to keeping within certain bands of economic stability relative to other EU members. And if you believe the Tories we'd never manage to do that because we're too wee, too poor and too stupid, so would never be allowed to.

The bottom line here is that the EU picture is unclear, and anyone who thinks that the EU will just do what English politicians want it to do obviously hasn't watched Europe for the last twenty years.

There's also a growing body of opinion in the nationalist movement in Scotland which would rather follow the Norwegian model of being in the EEA but not the EU.

The most important thing is that it would be our own choice, not a choice imposed on us by a government we didn't vote for.

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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by biffer » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:11 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:
biffer wrote:Nope, they were asked the proposed question.

Which is

"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"
Mr. Salmond clearly failed GCSE Maths (or Statistics) or whatever that is in Scotland.

It is called a loaded question.
Show me a question that isn't loaded. The unionist's suggested questions are either deliberately long and convoluted or they use words which have negative overtones such as 'seperation' which reflect the entirely negative tone of the union campaign. I STILL haven't heard any positive arguments for maintaining the union. It's had its time, so long, thanks for the good times but we're better off on our own - and that applies to all of us, not just Scotland.

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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by Bill W (2) » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:28 pm

biffer wrote:Scotland is currently part of the European Union. .
No it isn't. It is part of the UK which is part of the EU. As a Nation Scotland does not exist.

Cyprus is part of the EU. But since the South voted "No" in the referendum for a united Cyprus we have a typical EU muggers buddle. The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is part of the EU but uses Turkish Currency and has its own Government.

Scotland, post independance would be in as similar orthogonal position. It would not be part of the EU- although it could choose to apply for membership - and accept the Euro and Schengen - or stay out - in either event with border controls.

Mr. Salmond and youself have not thought this through!!
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by Bill W (2) » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:33 pm

biffer wrote:
Bill W (2) wrote:
biffer wrote:Nope, they were asked the proposed question.

Which is

"Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"
Mr. Salmond clearly failed GCSE Maths (or Statistics) or whatever that is in Scotland.

It is called a loaded question.
Show me a question that isn't loaded. The unionist's suggested questions are either deliberately long and convoluted or they use words which have negative overtones such as 'seperation' which reflect the entirely negative tone of the union campaign. I STILL haven't heard any positive arguments for maintaining the union. It's had its time, so long, thanks for the good times but we're better off on our own - and that applies to all of us, not just Scotland.

I charge £50 per hour or part thereof to coach GCSE Mathematics and Statistics.

As Kinny has said if you want to leave - fine - go - we neither want you or need you. Go - now
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by biffer » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:07 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:
biffer wrote:Scotland is currently part of the European Union. .
No it isn't. It is part of the UK which is part of the EU. As a Nation Scotland does not exist.

Cyprus is part of the EU. But since the South voted "No" in the referendum for a united Cyprus we have a typical EU muggers buddle. The Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus is part of the EU but uses Turkish Currency and has its own Government.

Scotland, post independance would be in as similar orthogonal position. It would not be part of the EU- although it could choose to apply for membership - and accept the Euro and Schengen - or stay out - in either event with border controls.

Mr. Salmond and youself have not thought this through!!
Scotland is currently in the EU - not as a nation itself, but the territory and the people are. The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland isn't in the European Union either - would you have to reapply too?

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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by biffer » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:09 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:
I charge £50 per hour or part thereof to coach GCSE Mathematics and Statistics.

As Kinny has said if you want to leave - fine - go - we neither want you or need you. Go - now
Why do you keep talking about Maths and Statistics when it's English language and grammar that are at the heart of this particular issue? Seems a bit weird.

I'm happy to go.

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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by Bill W (2) » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:17 pm

biffer wrote:[Scotland is currently in the EU - not as a nation itself, but the territory and the people are.
Alas (for your arguments) not so. You (the Scottish) have representation through being part of the UK. Once you gain Independance you will lose all you MEP's and your territory will be a mere piece of rock (Kinny's words)

You really have not thought it through have you? Read the treaties.

Oh and by the way, I think (post April 1 2012) you should switch to driving on the right - but do not do it all at once, lorries and coaches first, then cars, then motorcycles and cycles!!
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by biffer » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:28 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:
biffer wrote:[Scotland is currently in the EU - not as a nation itself, but the territory and the people are.
Alas (for your arguments) not so. You (the Scottish) have representation through being part of the UK. Once you gain Independance you will lose all you MEP's and your territory will be a mere piece of rock (Kinny's words)

You really have not thought it through have you? Read the treaties.

Oh and by the way, I think (post April 1 2012) you should switch to driving on the right - but do not do it all at once, lorries and coaches first, then cars, then motorcycles and cycles!!
And the UK will cease to exist as well. So the same will apply to you. If you think you're going to hold on to things like the rebate in a new country, and that you won't have to renegotiate every aspect of your membership, well, good luck with that.

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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by Bill W (2) » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:44 pm

biffer wrote:And the UK will cease to exist as well. So the same will apply to you. If you think you're going to hold on to things like the rebate in a new country, and that you won't have to renegotiate every aspect of your membership, well, good luck with that.
100% wrong!! The UK will remain as a Soveriegn Nation and a signatory to the various treaties. (mores the pity). With our Government in Westminster but with no Scottish MP's and without the Scottish drain on the UK economy.

That is what you want isn't it?

You? You will be "on your own" - "do you agree that Sctland should be independent?" language - look up the meaning of independent!!
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by biffer » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:09 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:
biffer wrote:And the UK will cease to exist as well. So the same will apply to you. If you think you're going to hold on to things like the rebate in a new country, and that you won't have to renegotiate every aspect of your membership, well, good luck with that.
100% wrong!! The UK will remain as a Soveriegn Nation and a signatory to the various treaties. (mores the pity). With our Government in Westminster but with no Scottish MP's and without the Scottish drain on the UK economy.

That is what you want isn't it?

You? You will be "on your own" - "do you agree that Sctland should be independent?" language - look up the meaning of independent!!
Everything you're typing is based on assertion and what you think is right rather than the actual legal situation. I suggest you go and read the Vienna Convention on the succession of states.

Oh, and I'll charge a damn sight more than £50 an hour for teaching you international law. Away and educate yourself.

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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by Kinoulton » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:30 pm

I think the underlying point is, that whilst the Brits do seem to be eternally aggressive (taking on Napoleon, Hitler etc when only us and the Russians seemed to have the guts for it) we have lost our thirst for empire building.

India turned out to be a splendid country, but had to go it's own way.

Africa was a pain in the aris and we only bothered because Spain, Portugal, Germany, France, Italy, Belgium etc were threatening to grab the lot.

We never bothered with South America and were never realistically going to hold on to North America anyway.

There is no drive amongst the English to hold on to Scotland (or Wales for that matter) and we only support NI because a big section of that community show great loyalty to the crown.

England needs the UK like a fish needs a bicycle.
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by Bill W (2) » Sat Feb 11, 2012 6:22 pm

Kinoulton wrote:England needs the UK like a fish needs a bicycle.
Kust so Kinny, whilst Scotland without it would be like a fish out of water!

:smt023
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Re: Independence for Scotland?

Post by tigerburnie » Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:11 am

Jingoism aside gents,you're all wrong.
Britain is too small and insignificant,let alone a split up group of little countries.
If as a group of independant equal nations we can't work together,then I fear we will all become merely the whipping boys(and girls) of China,India and the oil barons(which will not include the Northseas minnow capacity).
We may end up as a nation of shop keepers,selling other rich countries wares(oh hang on that's already happened).
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