King Richard III

[Old Hob]

A comment about Market Bosworth led me to post about the battle of Bosworth Field (and to get an entertaining reply). As this is Leicester, and there is a statue, a plaque in the cathedral and a pub (The Last Plantagenet)among other things am I right in assuming that this forum is staunchly of the white boar white rose faction? Just curious.

[BJ.]

A comment about Market Bosworth led me to post about the battle of Bosworth Field (and to get an entertaining reply). As this is Leicester, and there is a statue, a plaque in the cathedral and a pub (The Last Plantagenet)among other things am I right in assuming that this forum is staunchly of the white boar white rose faction? Just curious.

Considering the alternative was a Welshman whose claim to the throne was through a) a woman and, b) illegitimate descent, what do you think?

Seriously though, Richard III was a decent king if you care to read the proper history books and not believe the fiction of Shakespeare. Don't forget the Bard was writing in the time of Henry VII's granddaughter so, if he wanted to keep his head, he had to show her grandad in a good light.

[Old Hob]

Oh don't worry BJ, I always wear a white rose on August 22nd just as I wear black on October 21st.

[DickyP]

OK - I admit my ignorance - why a black rose on 21st October? The only reason I know to remember that date is that it's Trafalgar Day and it doesn't to my knowledge have any connections to a black rose?

[Old Hob]

Sorry - ambiguity; my mistake. White ROSE 22nd August. Just a black something on Trafalgar Day.

[DickyP]

Still confused - what's black about on Trafalgar Day - Black Tot Day on 31st July I know - the last day Rum was issued in the Navy.

[Rizzo]

Although I do have some Welsh ancestry, I have always been a Yorkist. Indeed, I studied Shakespeare's Richard III for A level English and got into very agitated discussions with one of the teachers about propaganda, and the historical facts. There are so many things incorrect about the play's lead character, and the things people think they know about Richard Plantagenet. He was an able soldier and a battle commander so trusted and experienced that his elder brother King Edward IV gave over the vanguard to his command when he was barely 19. He could barely have sat on a horse had he been the crookback cripple that he is often portrayed to have been. He was a good Royal Duke, a just protector and a fair King. In the annals of the city of York records state "King Richard, late mercifully reigning upon us.. was slain and murdered to the great heaviness of this city." He was said to have been buried by the Grey Friars after the scorn and mutilation of Henry Tudor's soldiers - and the known situation of the Grey Friars Abbey is adjacent to the office where I work.

As a lover of historical novels, I've read many about Richard, Anne Neville, and the Wars of the Roses - one particular favourite is We Speak No Treason by Rosemary Hawley Jarman. The new novels by Phillippa Gregory are good, with Elizabeth Woodville and Margaret Beaufort (Henry Tudor's mother) as their subject matters.

In my view, Richard was and is misjudged by many historical sources, based on propaganda, lies and whispers from before his death to date. It would have suited Henry Tudor much more to have the two princes in the tower "disappear" and was much more his style to do things that way.

[Old Hob]

Indeed. Shakespeare has Richard killing the Duke of Somerset in the first battle of St Albans. A wicked act indeed, particularly as at the time (1455) Richard was only 2 years old. Toddler tantrums indeed!

For DickyP my black armband on 21st Oct is for Nelson.

[Kinoulton]

Indeed, fiction reflecting fact is a dangerous thing.

Apparently the USA won WWII with minimal assistance from Britain, all South American airports were run by swarthy men who had a deep mistrust of The Saint, women in fast open-top sports cars were not bothered by flapping hair, the streets of London were devoid of traffic whenever our hero needed to drive fast or park, Robin Hood's men could sit in 500 square miles of dense forest, yet know exactly the route to be taken by rich people, and all crimes in America would be committed by beautiful blondes that David Soul would fall in love with, leading to much pathos when she got shot or put in prison.

And so it is written.

[CJ]

as it says on the plaque: "A good King who died with his sword in his hand".

maligned by WS and yes I always wear a white rose as well in his memory.

[DickyP]

....For DickyP my black armband on 21st Oct is for Nelson.

Just been watching 'Pointless' on BBC 1 and only 17 out of 100 people knew that Trafalgar was in the Napoleonic Wars! Complete myth isn't it that educational standards are slipping.

[Kinoulton]

I'm not sure if educational standards are slipping (given the ever improving GCSE results) but more that adults seem to have decided that being good at maths, English or retaining any knowledge that is not directly related to scart leads or iPods is somehow geeky.

I have huge areas of ignorance, like politics and films, but I'm not proud of it.

Whereas there are several generations of people peppering our media who seem to wear their lack of knowledge as proof of how "cool" they are.

[Old Hob]

....For DickyP my black armband on 21st Oct is for Nelson.

Just been watching 'Pointless' on BBC 1 and only 17 out of 100 people knew that Trafalgar was in the Napoleonic Wars! Complete myth isn't it that educational standards are slipping.

No, surely not! I happened to mention Guy Fawkes and was met with response: "Yeah, great film"
"???"
"Ya know 'V'"
"Ah yes, a good film indeed - but what about the original? You know, 1605, gunpowder plot, bonfire night?"

"???????"

[Kinoulton]

I quite like the idea of going on Pointless, alas my success would depend entirely on the categories.

It seems contestants are routinely expected to "name a Mariah Carey hit" or "name a film in which Ben Stiller got an acting credit".

I wouldn't have a Scooby-Doo of any answers, let alone finding one that few other people had thought of. Hence I'm not even going to apply.

[DickyP]

I quite like the idea of going on Pointless, alas my success would depend entirely on the categories.

It seems contestants are routinely expected to "name a Mariah Carey hit" or "name a film in which Ben Stiller got an acting credit".

I wouldn't have a Scooby-Doo of any answers, let alone finding one that few other people had thought of. Hence I'm not even going to apply.

I love the show and I know exactly what you mean - there are rounds where I know all the answers and those where I know none - usually exactly the opposite ones to the knowledge base of the actual contestants.