Why should I pay to send someone's child to a faith school?

[Old Hob]

I think the difference is, that being non-religious, I'm not asking anyone else to share my views.

In my 13 years of school, I don't recall my valuable education time being wasted by boring daily assemblies about atheism.

For the last 50 years the BBC has spent our license fee money on Songs Of Praise, which as far as I'm aware does not cater for agnostics.

No one comes on to Radio 2 at 9:15 a.m. to advise me that there is no God and it's all a load of nads.

All we get is state sponsored doctrine about Christianity and state sponsored nods to Islam etc to say "they think differently".

However, unless you have been "indoctrinated" with all the bible stories much of literature remains a mystery as the references pass by unregarded. The same applies to painting.
An atheist glad of my RE lessons.

I just don't feel the need to pay for opinions with which I disagree.

[DickyP]

... I think the difference is, that being non-religious, I'm not asking anyone else to share my views....

But that's exactly what you are doing in this thread - you are denigrating groups which disagree with your belief system which you are claiming is superior. You cannot, as you did, call someone's beliefs 'religious rubbish and intolerance' without, by definition, claiming your beliefs aren't and are therefore better.

[Old Hob]

My post went wrong and my comment on Kinoulton's post ended up inside the quote instead of after it as here:

However, unless you have been "indoctrinated" with all the bible stories much of literature remains a mystery as the references pass by unregarded. The same applies to painting.
An atheist glad of my RE lessons.

[BJ.]

... I think the difference is, that being non-religious, I'm not asking anyone else to share my views....

But that's exactly what you are doing in this thread - you are denigrating groups which disagree with your belief system which you are claiming is superior. You cannot, as you did, call someone's beliefs 'religious rubbish and intolerance' without, by definition, claiming your beliefs aren't and are therefore better.

What I think Kinny is trying to say is the difference is atheists don't go round trying to inflict their beliefs on others. I still vividly remember 12.30pm on 25th December 1966 when my mother was preparing Christmas lunch and I was in the kitchen with her. There was a knock at the back door and I answered it. There stood two Jehovah's Witnesses who immediately launched into their sales patter.

Atheists don't knock on peoples' doors telling them there is no god nor do they build large stone structures in which to practise their non-beliefs and then hold their hand out for money to maintain said buildings. If this god is all around as we're constantly told, why not just sit in a field and worship him/her/it/whatever?

To return to the original topic of this thread, state education is provided free of charge. If people think they are something different or special and must send their children to faith schools, I see no reason for the state to put 1p towards their travel costs. If it means so much to them, let them move house and live next door to the school!

[Kinoulton]

What BJ just said.

I do not in the least bit think my beliefs are superior.

I'm not that well up on everything, but I think that the Japanese code of conduct is terrific and that the beliefs of the Australian Aboriginees is spot on.

But I'm not expected to pay for them.

[DickyP]

What BJ just said.

I do not in the least bit think my beliefs are superior.

I'm not that well up on everything, but I think that the Japanese code of conduct is terrific and that the beliefs of the Australian Aboriginees is spot on.

But I'm not expected to pay for them.

If you don't think it then don't say it!

I am a firm supporter of the preference for the whole state provision and funding of the education system to be secular rather than religious but this involves ignoring beliefs and not claiming that atheist ones are superior to theist ones which you explicitly did.

I agree about not paying.

[Kinoulton]

My belief (or not) is a kind of percentage thing.

There could well be a God, or an Allah, who created everyting and runs it. I could be hopelesssly wrong.

I'm not one of these people who scoffs at religion at the personal level. I know people whose faith has helped them through terrible crises.

But at the state level and the world level it has been used to promote the crushing of women's rights, promote genocide, promote war, and justify atrocities.

[hww27]

I went to a Catholic all-girls state comp - My Dad is Irish Catholic and my Mum is C of E, I was brought up a Catholic. It was totally my parents choice to send me to this school, there were two comps in walking distance where I could have gone but they chose to send me to the school I went to. Neither I or they expected me to get any sort of assistance to do this - it used to cost my Mum £25 a week to send me there as I had to take 2 (normal service) buses. If they want their kids to go there, they should put up and swallow the cost!!! You rarely get anything for free in this life and unfortunately in this day and age its even more true.
I personally think religion is a load of rubbish - working in the line of work I do and looking at some of my patients who are suffering terribly I think 'if God is so merciful why does He allow this to happen?' also I look at all the trouble its caused in some parts of the world - my other half's family are from Northern Ireland and I dont think I'll ever forget the look on his Dad's face when i inadvertantly let slip that my Dad's side of the family are Southern Irish Catholics....

[Kinoulton]

My dad made a massive faux pas when he befriended some chap in a bar in N Ireland and revealed that he was staying with his son-in-law who was an army officer.

As it happened, this chap was a protestant who thought the British army were marvellous and wanted to meet him.

So my dad took him home to meet the son-in-law.

It caused horror, and the officer had to explain to his father in law that as far as the army was concerned, both protestant and catholic communities contained a fair contingent of dangerous nutters!

[adamv6]

The problem with some of these Catholic Schools, for example, is that they achieve a level of behaviour, sporting achievement, and academic ability which many of our state schools can only dream of.

Why is that a problem Kinoulton?

Both of my children go to a Catholic school, which we have to drive to each morning, there is a 'state school' round the corner (we can in fact see the playground from out front garden).

The reason, I here you ask?

I have a belief that, the good that comes from religion and faith, is community and values, (which, remarkably are the 2 things I love so much about rugby as well). Those values make people better. Yes, some laws are based on arcane biblical laws, but you take the rough with the smooth.

Thou shall not kill? Lets cancel that one whilst we are at it...

My childrens school accepts children from all backgrounds and religious denominations. It is 80% state funded, and 20% funded by the Catholic church. Should it hold back 20% of its teaching for the non-catholic children? No, that is discriminating against them, just as removing a grant from only religious schools is.

Also...

For the last 50 years the BBC has spent our license fee money on Songs Of Praise, which as far as I'm aware does not cater for agnostics.

MotD doesn't cater for Rugby fans. You're argument is that you are not religious, so shouldn't have to pay for 'Songs of Praise' (which, BTW, I also agree is utter :censored:). I can't stand football, should the BBC cancel MotD?

[adamv6]

as they indoctrinate kids with religious rubbish and intolerance

I missed that gem!

Kinoulton, if that is your non-religious belief on what Catholic schools and the church as an institution does, its needs a serious revamp!

[Kinoulton]

The problem that Catholic schools are better is not with Catholic schools. I applaud them whole heartedly.

The problem is with "ordinary" schools is that they fail to achieve these same standards. So I am absolutely not having a go at Catholic schools at all. Far from it.

And I will absolutely agree that religion, adopted as it was intended, can give children and adults a code of conduct which leads to better behaviour.

However, one could argue that the troubles in Northern Ireland, 911, the Bali bombing, the genocide in Darfur and the fact that in some parts of the World gang-r***d women are stoned to death by the state, happen in the name of religion.

[Jay C]

However, one could argue that the troubles in Northern Ireland, 911, the Bali bombing, the genocide in Darfur and the fact that in some parts of the World gang-r***d women are stoned to death by the state, happen in the name of religion.

Hey Kinny, one could counter argue that Gandhi, Martin Luther King and Mother Teresa are all pretty decent role models - and I wager they would all condemn the actions you have mentioned as not being of their God.

Religion is often perceived as a man made invention that can be twisted to suit a particular person's point of view/actions. As you yourself also say, religion - adopted as it was intended - will give children and adults a code of conduct which leads to better behaviour... And to so much more.

If faith schools provide a better education for kids, then that is a good thing, regardless of anything else you may argue...


And to get back to the original thread, I agree that sending your own child to such a school is a personal choice with its own consequences which the parent should take responsibility for. Its just a shame that often state schools do not match up (in terms of moral teaching as well as educational ability)....

[Kinoulton]

I agree.

[tig1]

The Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest, and some would say the wealthiest organisation in the world. Its difficult to estimate or indeed imagine its wealth. The vatican alone holds billions of dollars of gold in the US and Switzerland. Some estimates put the the wealth of the catholic church in the US at greater than the 5 largest corporations in the the US. They hold incredible wealth in property, stocks, real estate, art and minerals. It has over one billion members globally all contributing to its wealth.

Other religions also hold incredible wealth, but to lesser degrees.

I am not really much into religion. But the idea that these faith schools should receive additional government subsidies is ridiculous.