Is racism a one-way thing?

[Kinoulton]

As I've said before BJ, I don't mind being called a pomme, limey, rosbif, honky, whitey, or whatever. In West Africa the white folk were simply called oyibo, and it didn't matter whether you were white cabin crew or a white CEO of a massive company. Oyibo was what you were, and no one got upset.

I am never sure whether people in white vans that steal horseboxes should be called Romanies, gypsies, tinkers, didicoys, travellers, pikeys or whatever. It's just language. If I ring the local farmer and say "watch your machinery, I've just seen a van load of gyppos driving slowly past your sheds", then I've done my job. If I spend my time worrying about their likely country of origin and looking up the "acceptable" term, then they'll be round his gaff with a big truck that very night and on a ferry with his £100,000 tractor by the following morning.

[cornish tigress]

Well here's my lefty liberal tuppenceworth...
I find the best tack is just to find people's ethnic origin irrelevant. Because it is. There are plenty of non-travellers who would love to steal your horse-box. Suspicious van would do. I am not very fond of Brit, or ExPat having been called both a lot while living abroad, I don't want to be lumped in with everyone who isn't very similar to me in a big blob. I'm sure all other nations feel the same. I do find all those terms a bit easy, and a bit rude. But then I am a limp-wristed lefty, as has been pointed out! Which I don't find insulting as it's actually more accurate than Brit.

[Rizzo]

With regards to BJ's example of the "Anton Du Beke Race Row" - I believe the lady concerned was upset and offended at the time, to the extent that she was picking her bags up to walk out. ADB then apologised, explained he realised it was in bad taste etc, she said she had accepted his apology and considered the matter closed.

So why isn't it?

I have no objection to being called a Brit (although when asked personally or on forms I still say I am English then British...) I spent six months in a school in the mid-West of the USA aged 10 being called "London germs" (clever, huh?) and "Limey invader", both of which I considered below my dignity to respond to, even at that age. The problem IMO is where do you draw the line? Calling someone by their national identity could be rude if done in one way, but perfectly acceptable in another. Myself, I don't care where people originate or what religion they follow, there are good nice people and not so nice people and utter drongos in all cultures and religions.

What I object to in the case mentioned is other people who were not present and not involved, getting offended on behalf of the person being addressed despite her saying apology accepted and matter closed. If you weren't there and the alleged insult wasn't addressed to you or made about you, what right do you have to take offence on behalf of the person it was made about?

[Rizzo]

Perhaps it's that it's okay if they call themselves by that name, but not okay if someone else uses it? Illogical and unfair possibly, but maybe that's it. I mean there is the US rap group NWA (n-word With Attitude) - so it appears ok to call themselves that, but they might well object if addressed individually by an outsider of the group by that term.

[chinnjamie]

When it comes to racism the world has gone mad IMO, as Rizzo suggested there is the music group called the NWA, there are other coloured groups who constantly include the forbidden word in their lyrics, yet if anybody from a different origin was so much to accidently mutter the word then there is complete uproar in the community. If the N word is offensive then that is fair enough, but surely that should stop EVERYONE from using it.
Its not just racism though, i think sexism has gone mad too, let me put it this way, can you imagine the uproar if an insurance group was to start calling themselves "Simons wheels" ,and suggested it was only for male drivers because they were the better drivers. As Jimmy Carr said " the most discriminated against group is young white males".

[Rizzo]

Now this really is "racism gone mad"

I know the Mail likes to exaggerate but even so it's still funny.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... tions.html

[POSTIGER]

I see your point B.J. It is indeed a minefield and there isn't really a right answer as what is construed as racist varies from person to person. I would say that the terms p*** and n****** are rarely ever uttered in a positive fashion and do belittle the recipient on grounds of race and therefore I avoid them. If ethnic groups refer to each other in such terms then I would suggest (though I disagree with it) that this is meant ironically and is a reference to the struggles that minorities have faced in the past. If a white person uses this term than the irony is lost and it becomes offensive. Sad but true.

I think you made the most salient point in the opening post BJ - why was this ever made public? The BBC have probably dealt ADB's career a mortal blow for the sake of something so petty - he must be gutted. Classic attempt to win more viewers - a proven model as shown by Big Brother's annhilation of Jade Goody when she had her run-in with Shilpa Shetty.

[Bill W (2)]

In my experience racism is more often than not in the mind of the insulted than in the mind of the accused.

When I was at Uni (a long long time ago) I had two particularly good friends. One was Welsh, one was Sierra Leonian and myself. The Sierra Leonian had a totally unpronounceable name (started Zac.............). When we first met up in the coffee bar after a lecture we introduced ourselves and Zac said his name , smiled, and said "You will not be able to pronounce that, but you can call me nigger". David (my Welsh friend) said "I'm Taffy" and I chipped in "I'm Whitey". And so we were for three happy years. Professor Fox failed to understand how none of us regarded these affectionate terms as racist.

[Kinoulton]

My best mate in grammar school was fat. We called him porky pig. He laughed and went and along with it.

Then one day he said to me "I've had enough now, Levo."

I told the rest of the kids in that year, (I was quite a big boy), don't call him any more names.

It stopped instantly.

What's wrong with simple communication? We all understand it.

[Bill W (2)]

My best mate in grammar school was fat. We called him porky pig. He laughed and went and along with it.

Then one day he said to me "I've had enough now, Levo."

I told the rest of the kids in that year, (I was quite a big boy), don't call him any more names.

It stopped instantly.

What's wrong with simple communication? We all understand it.

Alas Kinny, some do not.

I recall a conversation with a close friend - a South American - a Harley Street Psychiatrist (no I am not one of his pateints!) - on this subject. I used the word "coloured", he pointed out that was politically incorrect - I immediately apologised - he said that no apology was necessary - he and I would be friends whatever - but that we were all coloured so that anyone who objected to being called coloured was hypocritical - but nonetheless "coloured" was a non PC word. Black is OK (even though like Obama you are not, white is OK even though when like Gordon Brown you are not. "Coloured" has the implication of half caste (sorry) - i.e. of mixed race - which of course we all are.

It is a crazy world.

[Kinoulton]

I would say that there is not one generic "black person". There are millions and millions of them.

Therefore if a bunch of kids decided to call themselves NWA, and if a few other black rappers decide to refer to each other as n....., then they are not speaking on behalf of every black person from London to Suva.

Personally I don't care much how I refer to "ladies of the night", or "travellers", or people from Asia, or people of mixed race,..... but I do for some reason find the n...... word quite extreme and unnecessary.

[Jim__2]

A point that chinnjamie made... Sexism is just as bad. Women have complained that men have everything... But has anyone noticed all the gyms, or hairdressers, or even that car insurance (Sheila's Wheels and Diamond i believe) that only women can apply for. I cannot say anything about services only for men because there aren't any!!!

Racism...

Sometimes on this topic I make the wrong decision.. Sometimes I give as good as I receieve... With the point that, if they don't like being insulted, they don't insult me. Bit radical but hey...

There is a black lad who I know, who I used to play rugby with, and all our team would call him any name you could associate with a black man. But he was fine with that. This was because he knew that we didn't mean it in a way to offend him. Which, of course, we didn't because we were all good friends with him.

Bit of a rant... Sorry...

[madoqua]

As a white cop I've been called a 'bloodclot' and a 'bumberclot' by Nottingham ethnic peeps.
I've also received a drink in the middle of the '81 riots from asian peeps who have had their shops wrecked but knew that we were trying our best as we pumped sweat and were on our knees at 2am after taking petrol bombs and wooden stakes for 3 hours.
All of this IMO should rise above words and move to actions.
Call me what you like but please don't stab me or hurt my loved ones.
PC world has created this. 'Heard you, got you' letigigous society.
I'll take hurt feelings over a kicking any day.

[Kinoulton]

Since the sexism door has been opened, I'll add this snippet.

It is now well established that women can do any job that the men can do in the armed forces, which I think is fair enough, if that's what they want to do.

But I was disappointed to hear that at the RAF training camp I visited, the girls were given nothing like the same tough physical training as the boys. The RAF intake have it drummed into them that although they might be there to strip down aircraft engines, they are soldiers first and must be fit for combat.

Hence, they have regular 5 mile runs, are expected to be able to rattle off 50 very rapid press-ups, as a result of which they do all look very fit.

However "unofficially" the girls never run the same distance as the boys, are rarely required to do more than 20 press-ups, and are told to do them on their knees. So they're not real press-ups at all.

Surely this undermines the whole idea of equality?

[Bill W (2)]

Equality of the sexes not achievable.

If (heterosexual) males treated other (heterosexual) males the way they treat (heterosexual) females, or vice versa, all hell would break loose!