A Level Results

[Skin_and_Muscle]

Me2: Rule of thumb is a bit of a get out clause for you isn't it? The implication is still there.

It is incredibly insulting, kids might as well not show up for school if their efforts are just going to be scoffingly tossed aside by condescending adults.

What I wrote was as near as makes no difference to what you have been implying.

[Kinoulton]

DCat, when I worked for Boots I was asked to make some semblance of sense out of a mind-boggling system for recording patents.

Basically, egg heads in labs were creating several new molecules every bl**dy day of the week on behalf of Glaxo SmithKlein or whoever, and would patent them all just in case one of them turned out to be useful for something.

They usually had indescribably complex formula. By combining their atomic coding with computers' binary code, they could represent the strangest molecular structure simply by punching many, many holes into a punch card.

I eventually did understand the system, but then, that was my job. The way these chemists grasped MY job so easily made me very humble. Therein lies some bl**dy good brains.

[me2]

No, not a get out clause at all. It's a pretty accurate indicator actually. Not perfect, but indicators rarely are.

As for your suggestion that it is insulting, maybe if the system was better (or even simply more consistent) thenn there wouldn't be the need for any "scoffing" by "condescending adults". Afterall, it is often these very same adults who end up doing the recruiting for the positions that these kids end up applying for. They are the same adults that the kids need to convince if they want to be employed by them. The adults hold these views for a reason. It's based on experience.

Maybe when you have to look for a graduate position yourself you will get more of an understanding of what I am on about.


As for your final sentence, no it was not "as near as makes no difference" what I was implying. As someone who studies law I would expect that you have an understanding of libel? You falsely attributed a quotation to me and then said that you found this (fabricated) quote "insulting". Out of interest, would I technically have grounds for a libel case based on your past fabricated quote and if not, why not?

[Skin_and_Muscle]

I'm surprised you ever employ anyone then, who took exams after a certain year, or does the hypocrisy kick in when they humiliate the kids publicly for being of a lower intelligence and then employ them in droves because they're actually not that bad. Graduate fast track schemes are obviously a waste of time.

I hope it isn't the case when I'm looking for a job; I'll be looking for a job in academia, so I really hope my employers don't devalue all my academic experience. Are we are going to have to brace ourselves for unintelligent academics who have been through the education system recently?

As for your final sentence, no it was not "as near as makes no difference" what I was implying. As someone who studies law I would expect that you have an understanding of libel? You falsely attributed a quotation to me and then said that you found this (fabricated) quote "insulting". Out of interest, would I technically have grounds for a libel case based on your past fabricated quote and if not, why not?

It's an area of law that is precedent free but a reputable judge in the field of privacy and defamation considers online forums as more analogous to a "pub conversation" and not a publication so it would in fact be slander. With slander, a certain amount of give or take is acceptable and this can include paraphrasing, surmising and summarising.

[100%rugbygirl]

Firstly congratulations to all those who have done well in there exams, and good luck to those waiting on results.

Personally I find modular courses better, I'm not exactly awful at exams, but then its not something I really look forward to. But most people by the time they get to A levels or even before would know their strengths and weaknesses, meaning most would opt if possible for a course where the method of assessment reflects that. However, due to personal circumstances throughout my GCSE and A levels and now even my first year of university I have not always been able to do as well in exams as I know i could, which has been reflected in differences between my GCSE results (when i was unable to resit) and my A level results. Is resitting a module actually any different to a teacher reading through a piece of coursework and telling you how best to improve it to get it to an A grade? Personally I dont think so.

I also think most students could actually learn something from degrees where graduate employment has been consistently poor. I'm about to begin my 2nd year studying physiotherapy at Cardiff University, and went into the course knowing that a) a first wont secure me a job and b) i'll be lucky to get a job! Graduate employment from cardiff (one of the best physio courses) has been improving, but when i began applying for university, it was around 40/50% which at the time was high. So we all knew, we had to work hard, but that wouldnt be enough, we had to do more than what was expected of us and not spend days hungover watching loose women!! Maybe other students will now start to realise that sometimes a degree just isnt enough!

[me2]

Is resitting a module actually any different to a teacher reading through a piece of coursework and telling you how best to improve it to get it to an A grade? Personally I dont think so.

Maybe not, but then I also think that teachers reading through your coursework & telling you how to improve it should also not be allowed.

It is, afterall, supposed to be your own work, not yours & your teacher's combined efforts!

Coursework, once submitted to the teacher/assessor should be final. It should not go through drafting processes. I know that mine wasn't allowed to. Once submitted that was it. A teacher could advise (in general) how to approach a piece of coursework, in the same way that teachers are allowed to advise on how to approach exams.


But I agree about your point: It isn't really that different. Neither should be permitted!

[Skin_and_Muscle]

When in the real world do people have to sit for three hours and be pressured into a job.
When in the real world do people really work on a project alone? Usually someone will contribute something and it will be discussed and modified with and by others (much like a student submitting work and talking over changes with a teacher). Are sub-editors redundant at a newspaper?

[me2]

Maybe not, but the point of the exercise is to prove that the student is able to think on their own & to use their own judgement.

On your first question, it happens more often than you think. They are called deadlines. Some jobs have very short deadlines & very quick turnarounds for work so it does happen in the real world from time to time.


If a student is unable to prove that he/she can work on their own & poroduce credible work without outside assistance then what hope is there for them in the real world? Do you always need someone to hold your hand? Can you not work unaided?

[Kinoulton]

I'm one of these perculiar people who PREFERS exams to any other way of being assessed.

If you want to find out what I know about maths, computers, financial modelling or geography, then sitting me in a quiet room with a pen and paper is a damned good way to do it.

Putting me into a "work group" that turns into a chimps tea party just switches me off.

And and assessing my "course work" means I am probably the only who has actually done their own course work, whereas everyone else seems to admit to having plagiarised theirs from some other more talented person.

[Skin_and_Muscle]

Even if you have a deadline to adhere to, you don't sit there by yourself, with nothing else around asking questions do you? You are set tasks, with materials about to help you...and people.

A student does think for themselves, and then there is no shame in asking for a bit of assistance and guidance with a tutor. It is then up to the student to make a judgement on whether they take on board the tutor's advice.

Unless you are self employed, you never work unaided. Someone is always there to show you the ropes until you are confident enough to work primarily by yourself.

Kin: There are plenty of people who prefer exams to coursework, maybe there should be two streams of assessment so people can choose what assessment method suits them best.

[Skin_and_Muscle]

I didn't really explain myself; how it works at university is generally 80% exam and 20% coursework.It is similar at GCSE and A-level. Students at those levels should be able to choose their weighting. For kids who prefer coursework, they should have a higher percentage of their mark made up by coursework and vice versa.
Teachers already have to prepare kids for coursework and exams so it makes no difference to them if students have chosen their assessment streams before the course starts.

[Skin_and_Muscle]

When you put it like that, I understand that exams have the appearance of a level playing field and coursework certainly doesn't.
If there was a two stream approach, standardised marking would have to be something that was looked at (A-level coursework is sampled in different stages which goes some way to solving the problem- apart from rogue examiners). It would be nice if a system was developed that promoted the strengths of the individual to prevent isolation or castigation.

[Skin_and_Muscle]

If I was a pedantic person, I would say nobody could achieve A* in an A level, but I'm not so I see your point!
I'm not sure; I know when I was taking A levels, my psychology and English marks were just as vital to universities as my law mark and they were heavily coursework based.
I suppose it depends on what you are using your A-level to achieve i.e. how highly employers regard exams or coursework depends on what sort of skills are required in that job.

[me2]

S&M, I think BJ's point was in light of your suggestion that the xaminers could run parallel sylabuses.

If they ran a coursework & an exam-based sylabus for the same subject, which one would people (eg employers/universities) give higher regard to?


Like BJ, I would have say that they would regard the exam-based model more highly.

It is far less open to abuse, far more centred around the student's own ability & less likely to be manipulated either through assistance or inconsistent grading.



...and once again we return to the underlying need for a level playing field.

[Skin_and_Muscle]

I think far fewer people abuse the coursework system than you think; many institutions now use plagiarism checkers for coursework entries and have draft limits. It's far more regulated than you may think.

My point was that an employer who is looking for someone who works well with others and takes criticism and assistance on board might look to someone who excels in coursework.
I hope the universities I apply to for MPhil/PhD will regard my dissertation mark more highly than my exam marks; the skills required in both are totally different.