Menezes police may face charges - Your View

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Iain
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Post by Iain » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:00 pm

I see exactly where you're coming from.... you believe he was shot just in case he might have been a terrorist, so thats okay.

I'm sorry but there is NO WAY I can agree with what you're saying.

Sim
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Post by Sim » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:19 pm

Thats fair enough i'm glad you can see my point and yes i see yours but likewise i won't agree with you.

It seems to be the way on here no-one ever seems to agree with me :cry:

I want to be a police officer and i'm going to be applying next year so i often defend the police. I know a lot about policing etc and unless its something i don't agree with then i'll defend the police.

Policing is a very hard job especially in London and especially if you're an armed policeman and more often than not (not just in this case) they can't win, they're blamed when things go wrong for not doing enough and then blamed when they do do something e.g an estate in manchester where there were lots of joy riders, a boy was knocked over and killed. a young boy, they complaine dthe police didn't do enough so they ensured plenty of patrols. 2 years later and unmaredk traffic car arrested a teen for attempted theft and the officers nearly got battered fortunanlty back up arrived in time but the locals were all trying to get the teen off. Perfect exmple.

Thats all.

Iain
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Post by Iain » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:49 pm

Thats an entirely different incident, ie how to deal with mob rule. What happened to Menezes is something else. You seem to think it is okay for him to have been shot just on the off chance that he might have been a terrorist! Where does that stop!? Sim can you not see that there was a massive attempted cover up as they KNEW they had done wrong immediately after the shooting?

I wish you good luck in applying for the police, but fear for public safety if you can't recognise that what happened to Menezes is plain wrong and inexcusable murder!

orla - mumha abú!
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Post by orla - mumha abú! » Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:28 pm

best of luck with applying for a job with the police. im not belittling what they do in anyway, im just saying that i think they were wrong. i think its great you want to be in the police force, but please dont let your brain stop working. i mean, please dont just think its right because the police say it is, or because the police were involved.

shooting Menezes was no accident. it was intentional. a case of mistaken identity, yes. but he was intentionally shot. accident doesnt wash with me.
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Kinoulton
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Post by Kinoulton » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:38 am

Well here's a bombshell, Sim. Someone does agree with you. Me.

I agree that terrible things went wrong all the way down the line, but as usual it's the officers on the front line who are hung out to dry.

It is not a case of joining the police and your brain stops working. What happens is that you don't become super human overnight as soon as you're issued with a gun.

Let's get this straight. There is no other policy BUT a shoot to kill policy because nothing else works. When people watch the Lone Ranger shooting the gun out of someone's hand it is FICTION! Get it?

In reality the weapons the police have can easily kill you even if you're hit in the arm. On the other hand, you could be hit in the head or chest and survive.

Anyone trained to use a gun for hostile or defensive purposes is taught to aim for the torso and put as many bullets in there as possible to ensure death.

This is all very unsavoury isn't it?

But let's get this straight. This incident stems from instructions issued from the top, the Prime Minister, and all the way down through the police chain of command. We asked for it, and we've got it, and if we ever thought that there wouldn't be a fatal error at some point then we were naive in the extreme.

The police that carry firearms are extremely well trained, but they are't robocops. They are fallible individuals who are nervous about killing and being killed. They were given the instruction to kill and they wrongly did so.

However, none of us know how we would behave in a life or death situation. Not one single person amongst us has a clue how we'd behave and that includes me.
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Post by RoyalBlueStuey » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:42 am

It's a tricky one how to make a system like this fail-safe but that lad is dead...something went wrong...there needs to be an investigation so as to be transparent.
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Kinoulton
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Post by Kinoulton » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:48 am

Absolutely transparent.

I just hope the chain of command don't all wash their hands of the affair and point at the officer who was holding the smoking gun.
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Post by Dave W » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:46 pm

Real tough one to call this, part of me supports the police in what happened as there was a real threat to personal safety and tensions were very high and I suppose they were acting on what they thought was sound intelligence? part of me also thinks that they did over-react and somebody has to pay for that but who, I am not sure?? Thoughts definitely have to be with the family of the young man though...
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Sim
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Post by Sim » Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:21 pm

Firstly Orla and Iain thank you for the good luck messages.

Secondly mainky to reply again to Orla and Iain I do agree that it was wring and he souldn't have been shot, i don't belive that it is right beause the police say so and i do agree that it was intentional that he died but i don't belive the officers who pulled the trigger should get the blame. The intelligence officers should start getting flack but the officvers who pulled the trigger as i have said over and over agian were acting on the intelligence they were given. I can recognise that it was inexusable but i believe the blame lies somewhere completely different. And i do not belive in this cas it was murder as they were going on there intelligence, if they had no intelligence but belived he was a suspect and done it i would straight away say hang them out to dry, but in this case no i bleive they acted in the manner they were required to in that incident.

Do you not agree that the blame lies somewhere else?

Just to reinfore Iain my point about the mob and kid being killed was to prove that the police can never win whatever they do.

By the way i'm enjoying this debate (I mean no the fact that a man has dies obviously but it is interesting to see everyones point of view and its more dimplomatic than a discussion i would be having with most other people (friends or family)

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Post by madoqua » Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:23 pm

Well, well.

Salesmen (Iain), clerks and whoever having a go after the event. Typical!

I had a lifetime of taking :censored: from those who haven't a clue what it's like to be at the sharp end with a gun in your hand and an instant decision to make.

Thousands of well executed operations happen each year without comment. Get it wrong and the :censored: flows.

I just ask you all to look at what you do for a living and think about the mistakes you make. Hardly life changing most of the time I'll wager.

orla - mumha abú!
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Post by orla - mumha abú! » Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:41 pm

if i choose the wrong course of treatment for a patient they could be paralysed. thats life changing.
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madoqua
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Post by madoqua » Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:51 am

Hats off to you orla for what you do but I'm sure you take my point.

Hindsight experts are everywhere.

The Police is the only job I can think of where you daren't even say what you do in a pub. People think that they have a right to have a go 24 hours a day. Even when you are off duty.

I think that attacking anyone purely cos of what they do is very bad manners.

Hows the cricket???

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Post by Sim » Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:25 pm

madoqua is right the police get given a hell of a lot of trouble simply because they wear the uniform, and its shocking, i know that i have all of thsi to come but i'm sure i'll take in my stride.

What do/ did you used to do madoqua?

NEWSFLASH

The officers will not be charged

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5182500.stm

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Post by no.1ellisfan » Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:32 pm

am glad to hear that those involved will not be charged.

whilst i do understand that an innocent man has been shot and killed my support lies with the police officers who were involved in the incident. they are out there to do a job, which i am sure is not an easy one, and protect us. whilst it is easy to say that they killed a man on the chance that he might be a terrorist, the question is whether or not it was worth taking the risk of letting him live on the off chance that he might be an innocent man when their information suggested otherwise.

my concience is saying that someone ought to be punished for the death of an innocent man, but i firmly believe that the officers were doing the best job they can of protecting us from terrorist threats.

they get a lot of trouble for the job that they do and its about time we started giving the police a bit more support, that way crime levels etc may not be so high.
has anybody seen the plot........i seem to have lost it!!

Iain
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Post by Iain » Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:17 pm

madoqua wrote:Well, well.

Salesmen (Iain), clerks and whoever having a go after the event. Typical!
Make that Ex Salesman in my defence!!

I'll agree it is far more complex than my "bottom line" responses so far. There are a lot of ifs, buts, maybes and what ifs. I understand the reasoning in theory as to why it had to happen. I even try to agree and sympathise with the police (and will probably accept that the officers shouldn't have the finger solely pointed at them).

But I'm sorry, as a human being I cannot get past an innocent man being shot dead.

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