Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

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wigworth
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by wigworth »

Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:55 am Can someone explain to me the player welfare angle please? Other than the longer flight and jet lag (which is not that bad I’ve heard going to SA and back). We would be playing someone else anyway if it wasn’t a SA team (who we might not even end up drawing or playing in the knockouts anyway!) so it’s exactly the same number of games and if you look at our squad selections for RCC away games this season we have rotated anyway. So personally that is another narrative that I’m afraid doesn’t wash
Yeah it is the same number of games but I think the travel aspect is a bigger deal and impacts in a couple different ways than it would if it were a fixture in Ireland or France say. First the time it takes to get there, what day would a team travel down there? Wednesday or Thursday for a Saturday game? So you would lose at least 1 training day if not 2 in the lead up to the match. Then when do you fly back? I would imagine it would have to be the next day after the game, so you would lose at least another day in the next week. What if you get a Sunday game in SA and then have to play a Saturday game in the Prem next weekend, hardly ideal.

At least in the URC when teams go to SA they play more than 1 match so there is not such a disruption to the next weeks game.
Last edited by wigworth on Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

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3 SA teams in the Champions Cup
2 SA teams in the Challenge Cup
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by LekkerTigers »

SA teams in the Challenge Cup is a joke. Surely you have to include the Italian domestic champions? The Georgian team, the Black Rams? Parachuting them in, in place of actual deserving sides, is a joke and makes a mockery of their aims to expand rugby to new markets.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

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Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:50 am So,correct me if I’m wrong,but there’s not really any debate that the competition will be stronger,but other than some worried about player welfare (which won’t be that much different at all) most of the against are for selfish reasons about not being able to see the games live if we draw a SA team? 🤔
There will be larger pools so more games. There is already too much played. I love the game but am currently watching the Test Match from Lords, which is what we should be doing in June.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by Scott1 »

Old Hob wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:25 pm
Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:50 am So,correct me if I’m wrong,but there’s not really any debate that the competition will be stronger,but other than some worried about player welfare (which won’t be that much different at all) most of the against are for selfish reasons about not being able to see the games live if we draw a SA team? 🤔
There will be larger pools so more games. There is already too much played. I love the game but am currently watching the Test Match from Lords, which is what we should be doing in June.
No it's not larger pools,it's exactly the same mate. They are just figuring out whether they are sticking with 2 large groups or going back to small groups of 4
Last edited by Scott1 on Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by Scott1 »

Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:42 pm
Old Hob wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:25 pm
Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:50 am So,correct me if I’m wrong,but there’s not really any debate that the competition will be stronger,but other than some worried about player welfare (which won’t be that much different at all) most of the against are for selfish reasons about not being able to see the games live if we draw a SA team? 🤔
There will be larger pools so more games. There is already too much played. I love the game but am currently watching the Test Match from Lords, which is what we should be doing in June.
No it's not larger pools,it's exactly the same mate. They are just figuring out whether that are sticking with 2 groups or going back to small groups of 4
24 teams this season 24 teams next season.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

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wigworth wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm
Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:55 am Can someone explain to me the player welfare angle please? Other than the longer flight and jet lag (which is not that bad I’ve heard going to SA and back). We would be playing someone else anyway if it wasn’t a SA team (who we might not even end up drawing or playing in the knockouts anyway!) so it’s exactly the same number of games and if you look at our squad selections for RCC away games this season we have rotated anyway. So personally that is another narrative that I’m afraid doesn’t wash
Yeah it is the same number of games but I think the travel aspect is a bigger deal and impacts in a couple different ways than it would if it were a fixture in Ireland or France say. First the time it takes to get there, what day would a team travel down there? Wednesday or Thursday for a Saturday game? So you would lose at least 1 training day if not 2 in the lead up to the match. Then when do you fly back? I would imagine it would have to be the next day after the game, so you would lose at least another day in the next week. What if you get a Sunday game in SA and then have to play a Saturday game in the Prem next weekend, hardly ideal.

At least in the URC when teams go to SA they play more than 1 match so there is not such a disruption to the next weeks game.
Good points made,but you can just move a training day here and there and have a physio/rehab/rest day instead. With rotation i just don't think it's that big of a deal at all mate. You might lose a days training,it can easily be tailored to suit.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by Rugbygramps »

wigworth wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm
Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:55 am Can someone explain to me the player welfare angle please? Other than the longer flight and jet lag (which is not that bad I’ve heard going to SA and back). We would be playing someone else anyway if it wasn’t a SA team (who we might not even end up drawing or playing in the knockouts anyway!) so it’s exactly the same number of games and if you look at our squad selections for RCC away games this season we have rotated anyway. So personally that is another narrative that I’m afraid doesn’t wash
Yeah it is the same number of games but I think the travel aspect is a bigger deal and impacts in a couple different ways than it would if it were a fixture in Ireland or France say. First the time it takes to get there, what day would a team travel down there? Wednesday or Thursday for a Saturday game? So you would lose at least 1 training day if not 2 in the lead up to the match. Then when do you fly back? I would imagine it would have to be the next day after the game, so you would lose at least another day in the next week. What if you get a Sunday game in SA and then have to play a Saturday game in the Prem next weekend, hardly ideal.

At least in the URC when teams go to SA they play more than 1 match so there is not such a disruption to the next weeks game.
The issue with travel is bigger than at first glance imho. Unlike European flights you will be relying on schedule flights to South Africa, chartered flights just aren’t an option, so are relying on existing flight times. You would probably have to travel to one of the London airports, rather than Midlands, which adds to travel times. So an 11 hour flight suddenly becomes a 16-18 hour journey. Factoring resting when getting to the other end and not wanting to over do it after a long journey light training first day available. So from what I can see you loose 48 hours travelling either side of the game, and that’s allowing for suitable flight times, so your squad that travels to South Africa will not be of much use to you for the game after the trip whether that’s premiership or European.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

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Yet Jansen played what was it ,80 then 50 minutes,or vice versa in the space of 4 days? You can take the travelling as your rest days. Say Sunday game in SA,you should be able to get at the very least a rest/rehab day in as well as a full on contact session before the next game. That’s enough for most players anyway now,especially as they don’t do anywhere near as much full contact work as yesteryear.
Also every single player has a tailored s and c training regime/training programme that differs from everyone else,some players have to have more rest than others to be at full pace for the next game. In these days of s and c and sports science it’s easily doable and like I said before we rotate for our away RCC games anyway.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

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I’ll admit Sunday in SA and a Friday night GP game would cause some problems
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by wigworth »

Rugbygramps wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:55 pm
wigworth wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm
Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:55 am Can someone explain to me the player welfare angle please? Other than the longer flight and jet lag (which is not that bad I’ve heard going to SA and back). We would be playing someone else anyway if it wasn’t a SA team (who we might not even end up drawing or playing in the knockouts anyway!) so it’s exactly the same number of games and if you look at our squad selections for RCC away games this season we have rotated anyway. So personally that is another narrative that I’m afraid doesn’t wash
Yeah it is the same number of games but I think the travel aspect is a bigger deal and impacts in a couple different ways than it would if it were a fixture in Ireland or France say. First the time it takes to get there, what day would a team travel down there? Wednesday or Thursday for a Saturday game? So you would lose at least 1 training day if not 2 in the lead up to the match. Then when do you fly back? I would imagine it would have to be the next day after the game, so you would lose at least another day in the next week. What if you get a Sunday game in SA and then have to play a Saturday game in the Prem next weekend, hardly ideal.

At least in the URC when teams go to SA they play more than 1 match so there is not such a disruption to the next weeks game.
The issue with travel is bigger than at first glance imho. Unlike European flights you will be relying on schedule flights to South Africa, chartered flights just aren’t an option, so are relying on existing flight times. You would probably have to travel to one of the London airports, rather than Midlands, which adds to travel times. So an 11 hour flight suddenly becomes a 16-18 hour journey. Factoring resting when getting to the other end and not wanting to over do it after a long journey light training first day available. So from what I can see you loose 48 hours travelling either side of the game, and that’s allowing for suitable flight times, so your squad that travels to South Africa will not be of much use to you for the game after the trip whether that’s premiership or European.
I am sure the novelty of having to do that trip will soon fade for the teams.

I don't want to be too negative about it as I am relatively indifferent about SA teams playing in a European tournament compared to some, but the logistics behind it I fear are just going to create dead rubber matches where a team will field a competitive team for home matches and a mixed team at best to away matches, ultimately leading to a worse product than we had previously. Which also begs the question if some French teams are disinterest at the best of times sending teams to away matches in the UK and Ireland I can't imagine they are going to be any better in SA.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

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wigworth wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:32 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:55 pm
wigworth wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 12:11 pm

Yeah it is the same number of games but I think the travel aspect is a bigger deal and impacts in a couple different ways than it would if it were a fixture in Ireland or France say. First the time it takes to get there, what day would a team travel down there? Wednesday or Thursday for a Saturday game? So you would lose at least 1 training day if not 2 in the lead up to the match. Then when do you fly back? I would imagine it would have to be the next day after the game, so you would lose at least another day in the next week. What if you get a Sunday game in SA and then have to play a Saturday game in the Prem next weekend, hardly ideal.

At least in the URC when teams go to SA they play more than 1 match so there is not such a disruption to the next weeks game.
The issue with travel is bigger than at first glance imho. Unlike European flights you will be relying on schedule flights to South Africa, chartered flights just aren’t an option, so are relying on existing flight times. You would probably have to travel to one of the London airports, rather than Midlands, which adds to travel times. So an 11 hour flight suddenly becomes a 16-18 hour journey. Factoring resting when getting to the other end and not wanting to over do it after a long journey light training first day available. So from what I can see you loose 48 hours travelling either side of the game, and that’s allowing for suitable flight times, so your squad that travels to South Africa will not be of much use to you for the game after the trip whether that’s premiership or European.
I am sure the novelty of having to do that trip will soon fade for the teams.

I don't want to be too negative about it as I am relatively indifferent about SA teams playing in a European tournament compared to some, but the logistics behind it I fear are just going to create dead rubber matches where a team will field a competitive team for home matches and a mixed team at best to away matches, ultimately leading to a worse product than we had previously. Which also begs the question if some French teams are disinterest at the best of times sending teams to away matches in the UK and Ireland I can't imagine they are going to be any better in SA.
Has the French teams doing that hindered the competition though? Not at all for me. It was still a fantastic competition this year with some incredible games. Like Ive said recently we had the whipping boys in it for years guaranteeing teams 10 points so it will just return to something like that ,but at least it will be for only one game and not the return as well!
Could the product dilute? Who knows? I don’t believe it will immediately in any case,I see a renewed vigour and next seasons competition to be a cracker! Can’t wait! And like you said whether posters are for ,against or indifferent it’s happening now for definite. No point in moaning any more and just get on board and enjoy it!
I didn’t mean you moaning btw 👍
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by wigworth »

Scott1 wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:41 pm
wigworth wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:32 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 1:55 pm

The issue with travel is bigger than at first glance imho. Unlike European flights you will be relying on schedule flights to South Africa, chartered flights just aren’t an option, so are relying on existing flight times. You would probably have to travel to one of the London airports, rather than Midlands, which adds to travel times. So an 11 hour flight suddenly becomes a 16-18 hour journey. Factoring resting when getting to the other end and not wanting to over do it after a long journey light training first day available. So from what I can see you loose 48 hours travelling either side of the game, and that’s allowing for suitable flight times, so your squad that travels to South Africa will not be of much use to you for the game after the trip whether that’s premiership or European.
I am sure the novelty of having to do that trip will soon fade for the teams.

I don't want to be too negative about it as I am relatively indifferent about SA teams playing in a European tournament compared to some, but the logistics behind it I fear are just going to create dead rubber matches where a team will field a competitive team for home matches and a mixed team at best to away matches, ultimately leading to a worse product than we had previously. Which also begs the question if some French teams are disinterest at the best of times sending teams to away matches in the UK and Ireland I can't imagine they are going to be any better in SA.
Has the French teams doing that hindered the competition though? Not at all for me. It was still a fantastic competition this year with some incredible games. Like Ive said recently we had the whipping boys in it for years guaranteeing teams 10 points so it will just return to something like that ,but at least it will be for only one game and not the return as well!
Could the product dilute? Who knows? I don’t believe it will immediately in any case,I see a renewed vigour and next seasons competition to be a cracker! Can’t wait! And like you said whether posters are for ,against or indifferent it’s happening now for definite. No point in moaning any more and just get on board and enjoy it!
I didn’t mean you moaning btw 👍
Yes and no on the issue of the French teams, I don't think it is great when it becomes obvious that in some groups some teams have no interest in the comp after 1 or 2 rounds and in effect just send teams out and try not to get beaten by too much. Montpellier had 89 points put on them by Leinster this year when they played in Dublin which is appalling, Bath also took a hiding from them as well but I think they are just appalling and disinterested in general this season.

I do agree having the SA teams should help get rid of situations where you are praying you get an Italian team in your group for an easier 10 points but I am also sympathetic to the fan experience as well and having these teams in does offer a great away weekend at a reasonable price. I find it hard to imagine that anything more than a handful of fans would travel to away matches in SA.

As you say it is happening so people are going to have to deal with it, I am sure there will be issues but all we can do is hope they are resolved for the following year.
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by Rugbygramps »

One good thing maybe that as has been discussed at length on here, in the media and by a number of DORs is that the salary cap, and budget constraints have made it virtually impossible for premiership clubs to compete in the later stages of Europe, and this has now become tougher.
Therefore if Tigers do end up with a South African team in their pool, there can be no complaints when SB sends a side of squad players and academy prospects for the away match. That mixture has of course done the club proud in Europe this season
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Re: Five South Africa teams to play in European competition next year

Post by ay2oh »

Will cost Tigers a fortune to take 30 odd players+ other staff at around £700 per flight.
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