LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Tigerbeat, Rizzo, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Locked
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7417
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

RagingBull wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:36 am Heard it’s Spencer.

I feel like Joe will come to us but more as a Watson replacement
I heard that, the other one someone said was Jonathan Joseph. The fact the club kept the bloke who told him his contract would not be extended (Hooper) over the bloke who gave him the contract extension (Griffiths) would add to him being one of the ones upset about the fall out...
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7417
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

FrontRowUnionMember wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:44 am
RagingBull wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 10:00 am A slight gamble but Jack McGrath leaving Ulster.

Has injury problems which should lower his wage requirements, but when fit top draw. IF Aled and Steve were fine with his fitness and we had cap he would be a very good signing
Had we not got Cronin, or if Van Wyk was off, I could see the reasoning of trying for McGrath, definitely a good player. But having the former two plus Whitcombe is depth enough I think. Having 3x LH all north of 30 plus one at 21 who is really starting to benefit from gametime, would that gametime be lessened? We also have Richardson for depth. I think a 4th TH is more pressing with the risk Heyes could get more England recognition, meaning we are down to two senior TH plus Hoyt.
Richardson in his last couple of appearances has been seen more at TH than LH, possibly the club wanting him to either be a Leatigaga who covers both sides or even swap him completely to a TH.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7417
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

One of the good twitter analysts Sam Larner has started a twitter thread on free agents atm, including saying Martin Vaca would be a good fit for us.

https://twitter.com/SamLStandsUp/status ... OkWzw&s=19
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
RagingBull
Super User
Super User
Posts: 13211
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:54 pm

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by RagingBull »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:37 pm One of the good twitter analysts Sam Larner has started a twitter thread on free agents atm, including saying Martin Vaca would be a good fit for us.

https://twitter.com/SamLStandsUp/status ... OkWzw&s=19

I mean I struggle to see how signing another hooker is that good an idea for us currently and if Dolly is injured for a chunk of the start of season I would rather a steady old Champ style hooker than one that needs work on for the future (Dolly is only 23 and Vanes 21)

Also does he state if those players are confirmed free agents and not a case of some of them just not being announced?
TigerFeetSteve
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7417
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:23 am

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

RagingBull wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 1:02 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:37 pm One of the good twitter analysts Sam Larner has started a twitter thread on free agents atm, including saying Martin Vaca would be a good fit for us.

https://twitter.com/SamLStandsUp/status ... OkWzw&s=19

I mean I struggle to see how signing another hooker is that good an idea for us currently and if Dolly is injured for a chunk of the start of season I would rather a steady old Champ style hooker than one that needs work on for the future (Dolly is only 23 and Vanes 21)

Also does he state if those players are confirmed free agents and not a case of some of them just not being announced?
Not sure, he has done a thread, before trying to help out players out of contracts and giving them some exposure in a help to get them clubs, and has avoided most of the big names who are sure to have somewhere or ones with rumours floating around about them

Edit: as such his "good fit" type clubs can be more for the style of play and ideas on development as much as space and capacity for them
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
Jimmy Skitz
Super User
Super User
Posts: 4954
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 3:19 pm
Location: Thurnby Lodge

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

Scott1 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:00 am Food for thought
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... -world-cup
this is why Rugby will never get the crowds football does, too many games with the best players not on the field
Postiger2
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 773
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:34 pm

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by Postiger2 »

Interview with Joel Kpoku on BT Sport right now, doesn't sound like he's going anywhere soon. Loving it in Lyon judging by his comments
sk 88
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 943
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 5:33 pm

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by sk 88 »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:18 pm
sk 88 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 8:47 pm
RagingBull wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:40 pm So Jed Walsh/Morgan Meredith for Lancaster should I think be a decent cap saving.
Lancaster would only have been in the "academy cap" not the main one, and Jed Walsh similarly. Meredith will not be in the cap at all (unless we are really paying teenagers over £50k straight out of school!)
I'm not claiming to be an expert at all, but when Lancaster joined us he joined direct into the Senior squad, NOT the senior academy squad.

Now I may be wrong but to me that suggests he was not in the academy cap, and instead is in the main cap.

Walsh on the other hand was signed into the Senior Academy squad, and Meredith (when the club confirms Academy promotions) will be in the senior academy squad too.


Notably Agbongbon was the other outlier who is listed as being in the Senior squad, when in reality you'd expect them to be in the Senior Academy squad, and it was pointed out he's added his highlights reel to YouTube (which can often be a sign they're advertising for a new club)

Now it may be wrong, but if there's some weird quirk in the rules that forced their wages to be in the senior squad it could explain why they're not being held on to as tightly as others?
Could be, here is how the cap works:

Anyone who is:
1) younger than 23
2) joined the club before they were 18
3) earns less than £50k

is outside of the cap.

Anyone who is:
1) younger than 23
2) earns less than £30k
3) from outside the club

Can be in the "academy cap" of £100k. If you go over that then the player has to go into the main cap (all of his earnings as I understand).

In the main cap you get "academy credits" of up to £600k on the cap, these players must have been attached to the club before 18 but can be any age. The regulations were unclear to me on whether "returners" can count, it didn't use the word "continuous" so I assume so. The credit can be up to £50k per player. There is also international credits which is unlimited but very complicated (you get different amounts for EPS players, other England players, foreign internationals, which matches they miss etc).

For instance this makes someone like Harry Simmonds "cap free" in essence.

I wouldn't over think Agbongbon being put in the first team squad on the web site, I extremely doubt it is any way tied to players' status re: the salary cap.
Goooooodeeeeeyyyyy!
RagingBull
Super User
Super User
Posts: 13211
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:54 pm

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by RagingBull »

Anyone who is:
1) younger than 23
2) earns less than £30k
3) from outside the club

Can be in the "academy cap" of £100k. If you go over that then the player has to go into the main cap (all of his earnings as I understand).

So does Lancaster have to be earning less than 30K or 50K?
loretta
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1730
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:31 pm
Location: With the PFJ

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by loretta »

Jimmy Skitz wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:00 am Food for thought
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... -world-cup
this is why Rugby will never get the crowds football does, too many games with the best players not on the field
On the plus side, no tear-gas!
In my defence, I was left unsupervised….
Tiglon
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3887
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by Tiglon »

My understanding is that it's actually slightly different to that. An academy player for salary cap rules is defined as a player who on 1st September at the start of the season is between 16 and 24 inclusive, and whose salary has never exceeded £50,000 in any salary cap year, it doesn't matter where they have come from etc.

“Home Grown Academy Player” means an Academy Player who has been a Player of the Club since
they were 17 and who either (a) has never been a member of any other Club’s England Rugby Academy
or (b) has been a member of his current Club’s England Rugby Academy for at least two complete
calendar years prior to the current Salary Cap Year;


Home grown academy players are effectively not counted in the cap at all.

The academy cap is £100k, but any academy player can be put into the main cap, however they cannot then ever go back to the academy cap in any future year.

“Home Grown Senior Player” means a Senior Player who has been a Player of the same Club since
they were 17 and for at least two complete Salary Cap Years prior to the current one;


For each home grown senior player, there is a credit of up to £50k, up to total of £600k.

So, basically, I think that means that the likes of Van Poortvliet and Steward are completely outside of the cap until they are over 24 on 1st September one year, because they are home grown academy players.

The £100k academy cap is therefore just for your younger players who joined form age 18 onwards or have been previously in another club academy.

Lancaster joined at 20, meaning his salary would be in the academy cap if their is space, or in the senior cap. No credits, no exemptions.

Agbongbon - same story. Academy cap.

When you consider that the likes of Kelly and Henderson (who don't get the home grown academy credit because they were too old when they joined) could be placed in the academy cap, it makes sense to want to free up space there for them, rather than hang onto a prospect that isn't getting anywhere near the first team.

For cap purposes, it's more important than ever for clubs to focus on young players who are not yet 18, because they can be outside the cap until they are 24. That's a huge advantage compared to signing an 18 year old who, if he makes a big impact, will be a massive salary cap issue when you have to renew his contract at 20 or whatever.

I think I've got that right... :smt003
Dangerous4
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1359
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:15 pm
Location: High Wycombe, Bucks.

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by Dangerous4 »

Jimmy Skitz wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 6:39 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 2:00 am Food for thought
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... -world-cup
this is why Rugby will never get the crowds football does, too many games with the best players not on the field
I completely agree. Club rugby is being demonised. :smt064
Rugbygramps
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7263
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:29 pm

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by Rugbygramps »

Leicestertinytiger wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:00 pm https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/spor ... ut-7143870

Just get the feeling Moroni is off :smt010
I just wonder where he would go with the French having to use more home grown players now. Not that he wouldn’t be a fantastic signing for someone, but I don’t feel he would move to another premiership club either. Maybe Leinster with Conteponi as their backs coach, but they have no shortage of backs and have just signed Charlie Naghti
GB72
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1470
Joined: Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:44 pm

Re: LEICESTER TIGERS 2021/22 SQUAD/TRANSFERS/CONTRACTS: Steve Borthwick and the Chamber of Oval Park

Post by GB72 »

Rugbygramps wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:11 pm
Leicestertinytiger wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:00 pm https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/spor ... ut-7143870

Just get the feeling Moroni is off :smt010
I just wonder where he would go with the French having to use more home grown players now. Not that he wouldn’t be a fantastic signing for someone, but I don’t feel he would move to another premiership club either. Maybe Leinster with Conteponi as their backs coach, but they have no shortage of backs and have just signed Charlie Naghti
It is an interesting one and maybe players are going to have to look at what contracts and salaries are available rather than what they can demand. Certainly the old bargaining chip of 'i can go to France to earn more' is almost off the table and I really do think that this will be the last round of contracts where big name internationals will be offered big money deals as the value is simply not there with the time away on duty, plus recovery times etc. Maybe that is something that we have already started to do and are not putting the big money deals on the table but, if not, it is something that I can see coming. Every club needs a decent sized squad (many with more back up quality if much of the first team is away on international duty) and so it is getting harder to fit that in a cap with the top couple of earners taking in up to 20% of the total cap. I think that we as a club made massive gains when we unintenonally lost some big wages off the books when in the covid contract rebels.
Locked