Steve Borthwick and red cards

[Big Dai]

I don't know if this will work......but if it does.....enjoy.

https://twitter.com/RedLeics/status/151 ... GDGEA&s=08

...I guess I do belong in the stone age!

[Robespierre]

I don't know if this will work......but if it does.....enjoy.

https://twitter.com/RedLeics/status/151 ... GDGEA&s=08

...I guess I do belong in the stone age!

That was very well-handled. Imagine what a tmo would have had to say today!

[WirralExile]

My only worry is as we go lower we get more head injuries off hips and knees and we are back to square one.

Hmm, not quite sure I'm in agreement with you. When I was coaching mini and junior rugby and we moved from tag to contact, the tackle drills were aimed to always go low, with well used instructions to keep the head away from being hit. Typically "cheek (face) to cheek (bum)" and "what smells (nose) to what smells (bum)".
The kids had this coached into them and the only time they had problems was when playing other clubs in matches or tournaments, where the kids hadn't been as well coached.
Tackling low, below the waist, is more effective at stopping forward movement than tackling high, above the waist.

[DeadlyDunc]

Didn’t some of the influence on higher tackle heights come from Rugby League where the tackle technique developed to try and stop the offload?

As the likes of Larder and Edwards and others came across to Union in the early 2000s it seemed tackle heights got higher thereon.

Now we have to erase the past 20+ years which must be hard for players that will have been told and coached and practiced since they were kids (maybe teenagers) that a tackle should also stop an offload (ie target the man and ball)

[Pellsey]

My only worry is as we go lower we get more head injuries off hips and knees and we are back to square one.

Tackling low, below the waist, is more effective at stopping forward movement than tackling high, above the waist.

This is, of course, completely true. But equally, tackling high (around the chest), is far more effective at stopping offloads. So horses for courses. Both types are needed IMO.

[Hot_Charlie]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, change the stupid maul law. The attacking team gets the scrum if it becomes unplayable. Maybe go as far to say the ball cannot be ripped in the tackle.

See the change almost immediately.

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My son was coached cheek to cheek tackling in junior rugby league*, as recently as 3 years ago, so it's not totally a league thing. Tackling high is to stop offloads as has been stated, and also to aid the choke tackle and keep the player off the ground.

*I live in Leeds so its League all the way in most schools. No touch or tag, full on tackling from 7 years old.

The Porter red card/ban was a joke to me, but I can see how the Chessum one was given even if he did glance the shoulder first. We've seen them given plenty of times before. No malice just didn't get down low enough and the other player dipped a bit as well. Unfortunate but thats what they're trying to stop. Don't think either deserve a further ban.

As for Borthwicks views, coaches can't really state their actual opinion, so I'll take it with a pinch of salt.

[TigerCam]

My only worry is as we go lower we get more head injuries off hips and knees and we are back to square one.

Hmm, not quite sure I'm in agreement with you. When I was coaching mini and junior rugby and we moved from tag to contact, the tackle drills were aimed to always go low, with well used instructions to keep the head away from being hit. Typically "cheek (face) to cheek (bum)" and "what smells (nose) to what smells (bum)".
The kids had this coached into them and the only time they had problems was when playing other clubs in matches or tournaments, where the kids hadn't been as well coached.
Tackling low, below the waist, is more effective at stopping forward movement than tackling high, above the waist.

I was taught to play rugby at the age of 11 at boarding school 1960. The tackle technique, if you could call it that, was to tackle around the hips with head on the right side, squeeze and slide your arms down the legs. Used this technique in my playing days in the RAF and I never got really hurt in the process. The tackled player went down very quickly, often with the attempted off-load going to ground or not making it to the next player. The only time my head got hurt was by the occasional punch or elbow. If the plan is to make the game more entertaining then waist-high tackles only would open up the game more speed etc. The down side is the the fat boys up front would need a bit of speed training to get to the eventual breakdown.

[No6_Flanker]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, change the stupid maul law. The attacking team gets the scrum if it becomes unplayable. Maybe go as far to say the ball cannot be ripped in the tackle.

See the change almost immediately.

The way to sort this out (as with many of the game’s problems) is to apply the existing laws properly: after the maul is formed the defending team rapidly collapses it to get the put in at the scrum. Penalty to the attacking team.

[Tiger_in_Birmingham]

As mentioned earlier in the thread, change the stupid maul law. The attacking team gets the scrum if it becomes unplayable. Maybe go as far to say the ball cannot be ripped in the tackle.

See the change almost immediately.

The way to sort this out (as with many of the game’s problems) is to apply the existing laws properly: after the maul is formed the defending team rapidly collapses it to get the put in at the scrum. Penalty to the attacking team.

If the maul is collapsed by the defending team give the penalty!

I find it hard to believe the number of "choke tackles" that start to rumble, go 10-15m and then mysteriously fall over only for the referees to ignore the laws of a rolling maul

[OakhamTiger32]

I don't know if this will work......but if it does.....enjoy.

https://twitter.com/RedLeics/status/151 ... GDGEA&s=08

...I guess I do belong in the stone age!

That was very well-handled. Imagine what a tmo would have had to say today!

This is brilliant.. I like it when the ref starts getting some back chat and simply says "shut up"

[OakhamTiger32]

I don't know if this will work......but if it does.....enjoy.

https://twitter.com/RedLeics/status/151 ... GDGEA&s=08

...I guess I do belong in the stone age!

That was very well-handled. Imagine what a tmo would have had to say today!

I imagine now it would go something like this:

Healey - They need to check that, he could be in trouble here, yep, they need to check that
Dallaglio - Bath just look so strong don't they, they might be a bit unlucky here but I think it's Jonno who starts all that
CMK - Kitty.. Kitty... are you there.. I've not no angle on that, I didn't see anything so do you have anything to add?
Kitt - Let me just have a look... hmmmm.. nope, can't seem to find a good angle on it so suggest play on
CMK - For me, Jonno has Webster by the collar and is instigating the whole scuffle so I'm going to restart with a penalty against Leicester.. Kitty anything to add... Kitty...
Dallaglio - Got that about right for me
Healey - That is ridiculous, how is that not a card for Jonno? They've got away with one there

[Scott1]

I don't know if this will work......but if it does.....enjoy.

https://twitter.com/RedLeics/status/151 ... GDGEA&s=08

...I guess I do belong in the stone age!

That was very well-handled. Imagine what a tmo would have had to say today!

I imagine now it would go something like this:

Healey - They need to check that, he could be in trouble here, yep, they need to check that
Dallaglio - Bath just look so strong don't they, they might be a bit unlucky here but I think it's Jonno who starts all that
CMK - Kitty.. Kitty... are you there.. I've not no angle on that, I didn't see anything so do you have anything to add?
Kitt - Let me just have a look... hmmmm.. nope, can't seem to find a good angle on it so suggest play on
CMK - For me, Jonno has Webster by the collar and is instigating the whole scuffle so I'm going to restart with a penalty against Leicester.. Kitty anything to add... Kitty...
Dallaglio - Got that about right for me
Healey - That is ridiculous, how is that not a card for Jonno? They've got away with one there

I just did that in my head with their voices
Spot on that

[Big Dai]

That was very well-handled. Imagine what a tmo would have had to say today!

I imagine now it would go something like this:

Healey - They need to check that, he could be in trouble here, yep, they need to check that
Dallaglio - Bath just look so strong don't they, they might be a bit unlucky here but I think it's Jonno who starts all that
CMK - Kitty.. Kitty... are you there.. I've not no angle on that, I didn't see anything so do you have anything to add?
Kitt - Let me just have a look... hmmmm.. nope, can't seem to find a good angle on it so suggest play on
CMK - For me, Jonno has Webster by the collar and is instigating the whole scuffle so I'm going to restart with a penalty against Leicester.. Kitty anything to add... Kitty...
Dallaglio - Got that about right for me
Healey - That is ridiculous, how is that not a card for Jonno? They've got away with one there

I just did that in my head with their voices
Spot on that

Love it.......time to practice on these whilst in my "safeguarding" training session.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/just-a-penalty-5 ... ld-fights/

[Robespierre]

I imagine now it would go something like this:

Healey - They need to check that, he could be in trouble here, yep, they need to check that
Dallaglio - Bath just look so strong don't they, they might be a bit unlucky here but I think it's Jonno who starts all that
CMK - Kitty.. Kitty... are you there.. I've not no angle on that, I didn't see anything so do you have anything to add?
Kitt - Let me just have a look... hmmmm.. nope, can't seem to find a good angle on it so suggest play on
CMK - For me, Jonno has Webster by the collar and is instigating the whole scuffle so I'm going to restart with a penalty against Leicester.. Kitty anything to add... Kitty...
Dallaglio - Got that about right for me
Healey - That is ridiculous, how is that not a card for Jonno? They've got away with one there

I just did that in my head with their voices
Spot on that

Love it.......time to practice on these whilst in my "safeguarding" training session.

https://www.ruck.co.uk/just-a-penalty-5 ... ld-fights/

All relatively harmless except treading on the throat, which is downright reckless and would cop a lengthy ban today.