Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

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Pellsey
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Pellsey »

KiwiTig wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 9:19 pm We lost a game
We weren’t on top form
We got the tactics wrong first half
They were prepared and played better
The spine of our squad is good
We have strength in depth
We learn and move on and get better

Anything else divides
Completely agree. We weren't at our best and Leinster were. That is pretty much the story of the game.
CrumblingTerrace
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by CrumblingTerrace »

Pellsey wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:47 am
Completely agree. We weren't at our best and Leinster were. That is pretty much the story of the game.
[/quote]

And I would regrettably add, Leinster's best is better than our best.
Old Hob
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Old Hob »

Anyway, ignoring songs and who is or isn't a proper supporter and back to the real issues; I thought that Ellis was getting far more wound up in that game than we have seen him for a long time. He is concentrating on the positives, though. Reminding journos we won the second half and getting chippy if anyone suggested we belong in the "gallant losers" club.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by sapajo »

Must say that both the height and resultant hang time of the box kicking by Gibson Park was awesome.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by mol2 »

I was not making a case for Regions.

I was suggesting that in the current situaltion with the reducing salary cap that participation in Europe was of limited benefit to English clubs. Financially the income could be replaced by having a proper cup competition for the premiership.

I have never been an advocate of ring fencing. The worst team should be relegated and every effort made to support the promoted club in their transition to the top level rather than artifical barriers put up.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by ay2oh »

Reading some of the reports you would have thought that we got beat by 50 points. Both teams scored 2 tries and they won by 3 penalties and we declined at least 3 kicks at goal. Undoubtedly Leinster we’re the better team but we weren’t hammered.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by ay2oh »

mol2 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 9:53 am I was not making a case for Regions.

I was suggesting that in the current situaltion with the reducing salary cap that participation in Europe was of limited benefit to English clubs. Financially the income could be replaced by having a proper cup competition for the premiership.

I have never been an advocate of ring fencing. The worst team should be relegated and every effort made to support the promoted club in their transition to the top level rather than artifical barriers put up.
It’s a real shame that we can’t have a proper 2nd team competition .
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Old Hob
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Old Hob »

One of the biggest problems facing top players in the prem is there is just too much rugby. 24 prem games minimum; Europe pools, minimum; and for some 6N then autumn internationals, Lions tour or World cup, knock-out phases ...
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by TMC »

Interesting reading the reactions, perceptions from the other side.

First one is cup rugby is cup rugby. Leicester showed they were a little bit naive, keep the scoreboard ticking over, stay in the game, Leicester completely forgot about scoreboard pressure and the game was up by the 38th minute. Leinster were never going to give up a 20 point lead and to be honest I think both teams knew it.

Felt Leinster’s intensity dropped in the second half and they got passive and just absorbed Leicester’s attack, which allowed Leicester back in the game, that said Leinster showed they knew the importance of managing the scoreboard and by keeping at least 2 scores clear they weren’t in any danger. Good result with a load to work on so no complacency, best kind of result for a team, Leinster – and their coaching team in particular - wont be happy with only turning up for 40 minutes. Toulouse will pushing you if you only play for half the game. The question of whether this Leinster team can stand up to a 1000Kg+ pack - like the Toulouse starting pack, has still not been answered. We'll find that out at the weekend

Monsieur, well what can I say. Raynal was also awful from a Leinster perspective, if it makes it feel any better. Felt there was a huge amount of times Leinster players on their feet got hands on the ball on the ground but he allowed Leicester players on the ground hold on to allow the cavalry arrive unless it was so blindingly obvious he’d never be given another game. He seemed ready to blow a penalty a few times for Leinster but then changed his mind and let play continue, frankly don’t know how he keeps getting such high profile games. For the knock on 5 meters out, felt this one could easily have been a penalty to Leinster for holding on the ground with another referee who has a vague understanding of the laws. The Keenan tackle for me was a penalty nothing more. Leicester weren’t exactly shrinking violets in contact either, both Cole and Weise dished out a few shots, including one or two questionable ones. Sexton got the treatment a couple of times marginally late after the ball had gone, good backrow play won’t be a card but tickle his ribs all the same. One I thought might get a TMO review but they were asleep at the wheel all day. His view of the offside line and mine are not the same. Raynal was also clueless at scrum time as ever, would really love to read his referee assessors report.

I thought Leicester also showed a bit of a lack of imagination with the ball and the possession they enjoyed in the second half, Welford road is a narrow pitch, that necessitates much more animation and decoy runners if you want to drag the defence out of shape and create gaps, felt it was all pretty predictable and bar the Ashton try they only really stretched Leinster up front. Would agree that I thought that some of the wrong Leicester players were subbed off but maybe they were carrying knocks. Really like Ford as a player but he didn’t have his best game on Saturday, Leicester needed him to be on song and unfortunately from a Leicester perspective he didn’t really fire.

Seems to be quite a few misconceptions out there about budgets and a disparity between the two teams. I’m not so sure. People are talking about players being on Irish contracts, none of JCB, Keenan, Kelleher, Van De Flier, Doris, Conan, Lowe, Healy or Molony are on a central Irish contract, they are on Leinster contracts only, according to the published figures they’re paid €85-120K. The average salary in Ireland for professional rugby players is €85K (£71500) – that’s skewed by the guys like Sexton and Furlong on 500K. At the other end of the scale the academy guys (a good number of whom played the last two games in SA) on €18K – you’re 100% living at home with Mum and Dad on that money in Dublin. The IRFU in 2022 have 15 centrally contracted players, 6 of whom are from Leinster Sexton, Porter, Furlong, Ryan, Henshaw and Ringrose. Those players all took a 10% pay cut last year because the union was losing so much money during COIVD. That may change at the end of this season but the majority of the Leinster squad are on Leinster contracts only, earning €85-120K, according to the published figures. Someone mentioned the huge number of Leinster coaches, yes, but afaik that includes all the coaches who are schools or community development officers who go out and develop the U20, amateur, women’s, schools and club games.

As lots of people have noted, Leinster have developed the vast majority of their squad. Ala’alatoa, Lowe and Gibson -Park are the only imports from outside of Ireland, Henshaw from Connacht. We have one non Irish qualified player in Ala’alatoa. The game here is organised for the benefit of the national team, with 200 +/- professional rugby players, that's the only way the national team can remain competitive. Leinster also finished the game with an academy player on the pitch in McCarthy – he’ll move to a salary of €40K in the Leinster system next year when he graduates from the academy. Do the maths and the figures show there is not much difference in playing budgets and anyone thinking of blaming the cheque book as an excuse is IMHO grasping at straws. Leinster’s success is based on their academy/schools system and developing from within, not on a massive cheque book or a sugar daddy with more money than sense. Leicester have started that process but it takes time.

I didn’t post it previously when talking about Leicester's influence on Leinster but you guys also offloaded MOC to us - maybe now that can be forgiven :smt002

Best of luck for the rest of the season
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by RagingBull »

I'm in favour of 2 fully funded pro leagues with 2 up and 2 down more than just going back to the previous relegation/promotion.
Cut the number of teams in the Premiership to 10 which frees up 6 weeks already, get rid of the Prem cup frees up another 3 weekends. That's suddenly 9 weeks rest time freed up in a season.

Find 7 teams in the championship (or potentially in the National League 1 that can find investment for the opportunity) that are able to be fully pro or prepared to commit to being fully pro within a certain time frame.

Have a A league style comp done into conferences between the 2 leagues.

My worry about the old system is that teams basically drop down to playing nearly all amateur teams in some cases the drop is massive. In top 14 the ProD2 is basically all pro the drop is no where near as big.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Murph14 »

Dangerous4 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:20 pm I have always deplored the fact that provinces come up against clubs in European Cup games. It is not in the spirit of what it is about. Little wonder that Leinster have won it four times, with so many Irish internationals in the side. It was initially intended and still should, about clubs. Why then, should we not have English regions? No, that's not what I want, or any English rugby fan for that matter. So why do the Irish get away with it? Completely and utterly ridiculous! :smt013 :smt013
Ireland has the same population as Greater Manchester. So in theory Sale is the amalgamation of 4 Irish provinces. Leinster is a club just like Leicester with a sub-academy, academy and a senior squad. Yes, we have 13 Irish internationals (you had a similar number of internationals in your starting squad yesterday) but they have been brought through our system. If you have continual problems with systems then have a word with your own league and Union. It is hardly Irish rugby’s fault that it’s system works!
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by jgriffin »

Murph14 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:36 pm
Dangerous4 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:20 pm I have always deplored the fact that provinces come up against clubs in European Cup games. It is not in the spirit of what it is about. Little wonder that Leinster have won it four times, with so many Irish internationals in the side. It was initially intended and still should, about clubs. Why then, should we not have English regions? No, that's not what I want, or any English rugby fan for that matter. So why do the Irish get away with it? Completely and utterly ridiculous! :smt013 :smt013
Ireland has the same population as Greater Manchester. So in theory Sale is the amalgamation of 4 Irish provinces. Leinster is a club just like Leicester with a sub-academy, academy and a senior squad. Yes, we have 13 Irish internationals (you had a similar number of internationals in your starting squad yesterday) but they have been brought through our system. If you have continual problems with systems then have a word with your own league and Union. It is hardly Irish rugby’s fault that it’s system works!
Try reading what the majority of us are saying. The pressure of the Prem and other competitions is far in excess of that in URC/Pro14/whatever, hence URC players being initially knackered when playing elsewhere (a point made by players who've experienced both, like Do'C). There is a disconnect in England between the Prem and national side, not present elsewhere, so yes, your system is superior.. Population is misleading, its about playing populations, and in England most people play footie, not rugby. The skill crossovers from Gaelic footie are far better than from other sports. Therefore there are marginal advantages to being a regional side, as opposed to a club. That's it. Margins is all you need.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by jgriffin »

TMC wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:39 am Interesting reading the reactions, perceptions from the other side.

First one is cup rugby is cup rugby. Leicester showed they were a little bit naive, keep the scoreboard ticking over, stay in the game, Leicester completely forgot about scoreboard pressure and the game was up by the 38th minute. Leinster were never going to give up a 20 point lead and to be honest I think both teams knew it.

Felt Leinster’s intensity dropped in the second half and they got passive and just absorbed Leicester’s attack, which allowed Leicester back in the game, that said Leinster showed they knew the importance of managing the scoreboard and by keeping at least 2 scores clear they weren’t in any danger. Good result with a load to work on so no complacency, best kind of result for a team, Leinster – and their coaching team in particular - wont be happy with only turning up for 40 minutes. Toulouse will pushing you if you only play for half the game. The question of whether this Leinster team can stand up to a 1000Kg+ pack - like the Toulouse starting pack, has still not been answered. We'll find that out at the weekend

Monsieur, well what can I say. Raynal was also awful from a Leinster perspective, if it makes it feel any better. Felt there was a huge amount of times Leinster players on their feet got hands on the ball on the ground but he allowed Leicester players on the ground hold on to allow the cavalry arrive unless it was so blindingly obvious he’d never be given another game. He seemed ready to blow a penalty a few times for Leinster but then changed his mind and let play continue, frankly don’t know how he keeps getting such high profile games. For the knock on 5 meters out, felt this one could easily have been a penalty to Leinster for holding on the ground with another referee who has a vague understanding of the laws. The Keenan tackle for me was a penalty nothing more. Leicester weren’t exactly shrinking violets in contact either, both Cole and Weise dished out a few shots, including one or two questionable ones. Sexton got the treatment a couple of times marginally late after the ball had gone, good backrow play won’t be a card but tickle his ribs all the same. One I thought might get a TMO review but they were asleep at the wheel all day. His view of the offside line and mine are not the same. Raynal was also clueless at scrum time as ever, would really love to read his referee assessors report.

I thought Leicester also showed a bit of a lack of imagination with the ball and the possession they enjoyed in the second half, Welford road is a narrow pitch, that necessitates much more animation and decoy runners if you want to drag the defence out of shape and create gaps, felt it was all pretty predictable and bar the Ashton try they only really stretched Leinster up front. Would agree that I thought that some of the wrong Leicester players were subbed off but maybe they were carrying knocks. Really like Ford as a player but he didn’t have his best game on Saturday, Leicester needed him to be on song and unfortunately from a Leicester perspective he didn’t really fire.

Seems to be quite a few misconceptions out there about budgets and a disparity between the two teams. I’m not so sure. People are talking about players being on Irish contracts, none of JCB, Keenan, Kelleher, Van De Flier, Doris, Conan, Lowe, Healy or Molony are on a central Irish contract, they are on Leinster contracts only, according to the published figures they’re paid €85-120K. The average salary in Ireland for professional rugby players is €85K (£71500) – that’s skewed by the guys like Sexton and Furlong on 500K. At the other end of the scale the academy guys (a good number of whom played the last two games in SA) on €18K – you’re 100% living at home with Mum and Dad on that money in Dublin. The IRFU in 2022 have 15 centrally contracted players, 6 of whom are from Leinster Sexton, Porter, Furlong, Ryan, Henshaw and Ringrose. Those players all took a 10% pay cut last year because the union was losing so much money during COIVD. That may change at the end of this season but the majority of the Leinster squad are on Leinster contracts only, earning €85-120K, according to the published figures. Someone mentioned the huge number of Leinster coaches, yes, but afaik that includes all the coaches who are schools or community development officers who go out and develop the U20, amateur, women’s, schools and club games.

As lots of people have noted, Leinster have developed the vast majority of their squad. Ala’alatoa, Lowe and Gibson -Park are the only imports from outside of Ireland, Henshaw from Connacht. We have one non Irish qualified player in Ala’alatoa. The game here is organised for the benefit of the national team, with 200 +/- professional rugby players, that's the only way the national team can remain competitive. Leinster also finished the game with an academy player on the pitch in McCarthy – he’ll move to a salary of €40K in the Leinster system next year when he graduates from the academy. Do the maths and the figures show there is not much difference in playing budgets and anyone thinking of blaming the cheque book as an excuse is IMHO grasping at straws. Leinster’s success is based on their academy/schools system and developing from within, not on a massive cheque book or a sugar daddy with more money than sense. Leicester have started that process but it takes time.

I didn’t post it previously when talking about Leicester's influence on Leinster but you guys also offloaded MOC to us - maybe now that can be forgiven :smt002

Best of luck for the rest of the season
Thanks for a very sober commentary. :smt038
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Tiglon »

TMC wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 11:39 am Seems to be quite a few misconceptions out there about budgets and a disparity between the two teams. I’m not so sure. People are talking about players being on Irish contracts, none of JCB, Keenan, Kelleher, Van De Flier, Doris, Conan, Lowe, Healy or Molony are on a central Irish contract, they are on Leinster contracts only, according to the published figures they’re paid €85-120K. The average salary in Ireland for professional rugby players is €85K (£71500) – that’s skewed by the guys like Sexton and Furlong on 500K. At the other end of the scale the academy guys (a good number of whom played the last two games in SA) on €18K – you’re 100% living at home with Mum and Dad on that money in Dublin.
Obviously you just Googled "Leinster rugby player salaries", which comes up with the average salary for a senior Irish province player who does not play internationally being 85k, and that the most senior non-internationals earn up to 120k.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Murph14 »

jgriffin wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:51 pm
Murph14 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:36 pm
Dangerous4 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:20 pm I have always deplored the fact that provinces come up against clubs in European Cup games. It is not in the spirit of what it is about. Little wonder that Leinster have won it four times, with so many Irish internationals in the side. It was initially intended and still should, about clubs. Why then, should we not have English regions? No, that's not what I want, or any English rugby fan for that matter. So why do the Irish get away with it? Completely and utterly ridiculous! :smt013 :smt013
Ireland has the same population as Greater Manchester. So in theory Sale is the amalgamation of 4 Irish provinces. Leinster is a club just like Leicester with a sub-academy, academy and a senior squad. Yes, we have 13 Irish internationals (you had a similar number of internationals in your starting squad yesterday) but they have been brought through our system. If you have continual problems with systems then have a word with your own league and Union. It is hardly Irish rugby’s fault that it’s system works!
Try reading what the majority of us are saying. The pressure of the Prem and other competitions is far in excess of that in URC/Pro14/whatever, hence URC players being initially knackered when playing elsewhere (a point made by players who've experienced both, like Do'C). There is a disconnect in England between the Prem and national side, not present elsewhere, so yes, your system is superior.. Population is misleading, its about playing populations, and in England most people play footie, not rugby. The skill crossovers from Gaelic footie are far better than from other sports. Therefore there are marginal advantages to being a regional side, as opposed to a club. That's it. Margins is all you need.
If you bring up the knackered excuse then we can argue that our a Irish internationals played the All Blacks, Argentina and the the 6N’s (on top of their league and European games). So that negates the knackered bit.

A recent analysis showed that there were nearly 500k register rugby players in England. There was 40k in Ireland. So that negates numbers. Rugby in Ireland is way behind soccer, Gaelic football and hurling. So we have extra sports to compete with. So that negates that excuse.

Did you need to play full strength team against Bristol last week? No. And if you used your backs a little be more often then your forwards might get a breather.

That said it was a great game on Saturday and your stadium is an brilliant place to watch a game. Best of luck with your last few games in the Premiership. I hope you finish as winners!
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