Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

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loretta
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by loretta »

ay2oh wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:14 am
Bluemagoo wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:40 pm
Scott1 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:21 pm

The league is awful for the most part,easily the worse out of the big 4 (GP,Top14,URC,Super Rugby). It’s just a vehicle for European and International rugby tbh.
Have you watched the URC regularly? Leinster v Munster, 32k attendance, better game of rugby than almost every Premiership rugby borefest this year. Just because Leinster had no starters from the Semi v Toulouse, the team they put out would easily finish in the playoff places in the Premiership. There's a false narrative abounding blown out of all proportion by Sky and then BT how the Premiership is such a super league - it just isn't. Your comment is beyond arrogant, and ill informed. GP teams are going to get a nice little extra shock next year when the Stormers, Bulls, and Sharks come to town in the HC. Have a look in the mirror; if Connacht had a scrum they would have won in Welford road, and blew the return in Galway losing by a solitary point. Connacht have finished 11th of 16 in the URC.
Speaking about arrogance suggest that you read your own post back
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by jgriffin »

I've been both fortunate and unfortunate to catch various pre-URC fixtures (Pro12 and 14) over the last few years, TV (practise my Welsh) and live. While there is undoubtedly potential for top quality games at European level, I have serious doubts about all but the top sides surviving a Prem or even a Top14 season, simply because there are no games where the 2ndXV can get a run out and ease the pressure. Not just my opinion, but from players like D O'Callaghan. Sadly, some who come on here do display the kind of hubris that bedevils some (not all) Welsh fans, that their teams would conquer the world, if only.......
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by wigworth »

Given the budget would have to be cut at least in half if not a third given some of the talk and would then have to compete in 3 competitions not just two, it is silly to think that any teams either be it in the URC or the Top 14 would dominate in the prem playing by the same rules. Also why should the prem teams be shocked by the SA teams? It is not as if the prem is full of SA players already and you could even make the joke that there is a SA team nicknamed the Sharks playing in the league.
Last edited by wigworth on Tue May 24, 2022 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tigerburnie
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by tigerburnie »

You are not really comparing like with like, Scotland have 2 sides, Wales and Ireland 4 each and England 13(currently), so the internationals are spread more thinly in the English sides, indeed some have had none. Then add a salary cap to the Premiership sides(self imposed but daft in my opinion) and no salary restrictions on any of the other sides(apart from the Scots and Welsh are close to bankruptcy) and clearly there will be differences. Saracens when ignoring the salary cap won easily, so would Tigers no doubt if we were not hamstrung by financial restrictions. So we have an evenly spread home league, where anyone could beat anyone(yes even Barf have managed to win), but we struggle in Europe because of it, go back a decade or so it was the "Galacticos" of Swansea that were top dogs, didn't last. The French with all their money and larger fan base will compete on an even keel, but the English sides will struggle, one or two injuries and any of the Prem sides could have a season like Exeter have just had.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Not a jock »

The argument about spreading out the talent across 2/3/4 professional outfits versus 13 falls down when you consider the relative populations of E/W/S/I - England has 10-20 times the population of the others. I don't know the number of active players in each nation but assume it's somewhat reflective of the total population.
At school in the sixth form I remember there being First, Second and Third XVs playing most Saturdays and sometimes a Fourth XV too. If the nations fielded multiple XVs the same day, how deep into the list would you need to go before there's a complete mismatch between England and S/W/I? The point is that England has a much deeper pool of talent than the other home nations so much better placed to field many more professional-standard teams.
Perhaps one of the reasons Leinster/Ireland is doing well at the moment is that they have very few non-Ireland qualified players so home-grown talent gets more of an opportunity to develop and flourish than in England? (and is relatively cheap!)
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by ay2oh »

Does anyone know what the salary cap is in the I/W/S league ?
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Tiglon »

Not a jock wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:34 am The argument about spreading out the talent across 2/3/4 professional outfits versus 13 falls down when you consider the relative populations of E/W/S/I - England has 10-20 times the population of the others. I don't know the number of active players in each nation but assume it's somewhat reflective of the total population.
At school in the sixth form I remember there being First, Second and Third XVs playing most Saturdays and sometimes a Fourth XV too. If the nations fielded multiple XVs the same day, how deep into the list would you need to go before there's a complete mismatch between England and S/W/I? The point is that England has a much deeper pool of talent than the other home nations so much better placed to field many more professional-standard teams.
Perhaps one of the reasons Leinster/Ireland is doing well at the moment is that they have very few non-Ireland qualified players so home-grown talent gets more of an opportunity to develop and flourish than in England? (and is relatively cheap!)
I just don't think that argument works - regardless of the size of population there are only going to be a limited few with experience of top European and/or international rugby. What the province system does is concentrate those top 50 or so players (the ones that matter when it comes to this debate) across 3 squads. In England those 50 players are spread across 10+ clubs.

It doesn't matter if England has more just-about-professional players or more average Premiership-level squad players because they make no difference at all when it comes to competing at European level.

The English equivalent of Leinster would be if Sarries signed May, Steward, Watson, Launchbury, Barbeary, Underhill, Smith, Dombrandt, Quirke, Lawes, Genge, Nowell, Slade, Ford and Marler - then got rid of a few of their journeyman overseas players. Do you think that would fall under the cap?
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by ay2oh »

There apparently is no salary cap in the URC league. I would be very surprised if the Leinster wage bill was less than £10M which is nearly double that of the Premiership. If we signed Itoje, Lawes, Smith, Tuilagi , Radwan, Willis and 2 or 3 others up to their salary cap we would probably win the European cup a few times(and rested them for most of the premiership games).
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Scott1 »

Bluemagoo wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:40 pm
Scott1 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:21 pm
GB72 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:48 pm

I have always wondered how much the Pro 14 title actually means to those taking part. Clearly English clubs see a great deal of importance in winning the league but is it the same for the pro 14 clubs or is it taken as a competition to be used to keep players fit and in form ofr Europe? Am I paying the league a massive diservice? As it is not somthing I watch often, I really do not know.
The league is awful for the most part,easily the worse out of the big 4 (GP,Top14,URC,Super Rugby). It’s just a vehicle for European and International rugby tbh.
Have you watched the URC regularly? Leinster v Munster, 32k attendance, better game of rugby than almost every Premiership rugby borefest this year. Just because Leinster had no starters from the Semi v Toulouse, the team they put out would easily finish in the playoff places in the Premiership. There's a false narrative abounding blown out of all proportion by Sky and then BT how the Premiership is such a super league - it just isn't. Your comment is beyond arrogant, and ill informed. GP teams are going to get a nice little extra shock next year when the Stormers, Bulls, and Sharks come to town in the HC. Have a look in the mirror; if Connacht had a scrum they would have won in Welford road, and blew the return in Galway losing by a solitary point. Connacht have finished 11th of 16 in the URC.
"For the most part"!
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by sam16111986 »

Bluemagoo wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:40 pm
Scott1 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 1:21 pm
GB72 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 12:48 pm

I have always wondered how much the Pro 14 title actually means to those taking part. Clearly English clubs see a great deal of importance in winning the league but is it the same for the pro 14 clubs or is it taken as a competition to be used to keep players fit and in form ofr Europe? Am I paying the league a massive diservice? As it is not somthing I watch often, I really do not know.
The league is awful for the most part,easily the worse out of the big 4 (GP,Top14,URC,Super Rugby). It’s just a vehicle for European and International rugby tbh.
Have you watched the URC regularly? Leinster v Munster, 32k attendance, better game of rugby than almost every Premiership rugby borefest this year. Just because Leinster had no starters from the Semi v Toulouse, the team they put out would easily finish in the playoff places in the Premiership. There's a false narrative abounding blown out of all proportion by Sky and then BT how the Premiership is such a super league - it just isn't. Your comment is beyond arrogant, and ill informed. GP teams are going to get a nice little extra shock next year when the Stormers, Bulls, and Sharks come to town in the HC. Have a look in the mirror; if Connacht had a scrum they would have won in Welford road, and blew the return in Galway losing by a solitary point. Connacht have finished 11th of 16 in the URC.
If Connacht had a scrum then perhaps Tigers would have named a stronger side instead of rotating. I think four of the starting XV from away game Vs Connacht started Vs Leinster and one of those was put of position Vs Connacht.

The URC gets a bad rep because there are some very weak teams in there and there is some obvious influence by the the Unions to ensure significant rest periods for key players, prioritising other competitions. The fact that currently the Welsh and Italian teams are extremely weak and the regions embroiled in turmoil doesn't do much for the league's image. There are of course some very interesting teams and games and the introduction of South Africa will be interesting. If the SA teams are given the green light in what with travel costs, comp places etc.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Scott1 »

Not a jock wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:34 am The argument about spreading out the talent across 2/3/4 professional outfits versus 13 falls down when you consider the relative populations of E/W/S/I - England has 10-20 times the population of the others. I don't know the number of active players in each nation but assume it's somewhat reflective of the total population.
At school in the sixth form I remember there being First, Second and Third XVs playing most Saturdays and sometimes a Fourth XV too. If the nations fielded multiple XVs the same day, how deep into the list would you need to go before there's a complete mismatch between England and S/W/I? The point is that England has a much deeper pool of talent than the other home nations so much better placed to field many more professional-standard teams.
Perhaps one of the reasons Leinster/Ireland is doing well at the moment is that they have very few non-Ireland qualified players so home-grown talent gets more of an opportunity to develop and flourish than in England? (and is relatively cheap!)
See New Zealand for argument against. Population 5.5m?
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by mol2 »

The difference is the the English clubs are unable to assemble the quality and depth of squad required to compete with the big budget clubs in France or the Irish regions as a result of the salary cap.

The big French sides can assemble teams from their own development squads and buy in the international players to fill any gaps.
The Irish regions are different. Yes many players from their development squads or steered into them for national development. The biggest beneficiaries being Leinster and Munster. Ulster less so and Connaught even less.

No English side can attract enough home players or top foreign players within the budget constraints. Sarries did it but only by circumventing the rules. Likewise the RFU can’t readily place England players in two or three clubs without killing the league as a competition. For me, there are too many good but not international foreign players in the league. Cheaper presumably the English language and lower salary rates in their home countries explains this. How many home grown players miss out on opportunities because of this and are lost to the game? Less risk in a known quantity player than a youth player.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by wigworth »

Some interesting tidbits in this BBC article, https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61591464

"Of the 13 Ireland internationals that started the province's semi-final dismantling of Toulouse, not one of them played in more than a third of their 18 league matches."

"In fact, all of them played more international Test matches this season than they did league games, with the exception of James Lowe who played six of each."
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Old Hob »

Big article in today's Times on Stuart Lancaster; "From an England failure to Leinster's most prized asset". It recounts how he has used 60 players in 26 matches and beat Munster last Saturday without a single first team player. They run 3 sides in training and will lose 17 - 20 players to the national side.
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Re: Tigers v Leinster (H) - Saturday 07th May 2022 - 5-30pm KO

Post by Scott1 »

Old Hob wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 11:53 am Big article in today's Times on Stuart Lancaster; "From an England failure to Leinster's most prized asset". It recounts how he has used 60 players in 26 matches and beat Munster last Saturday without a single first team player. They run 3 sides in training and will lose 17 - 20 players to the national side.
SL isn't in charge,its more of a dig at England. Although I'm not saying he isn't valuable, we all know where his talents lie.
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