The decline and fall of Munster

[chris111]

Interesting piece in the Guardian today for those with alternative broadsheet preferences. As someone who has always seen Munster as the natural ‘twin’ of Tigers this makes for sobering reading
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ne-forever

[Rugbygramps]

Thanks Chris, very sobering. Maybe it’s the Hand of Back final, but like you I have always seen the 2 clubs intertwined

[DeadlyDunc]

Turgid rugby doesn’t sound like a style that will endear Van Graan to the Bath faithful - if they don’t get results quickly that could turn ugly at the Rec

[sam16111986]

Turgid rugby doesn’t sound like a style that will endear Van Graan to the Bath faithful - if they don’t get results quickly that could turn ugly at the Rec

Surely can't be worse than where they are currently.

[Crofty]

Turgid rugby doesn’t sound like a style that will endear Van Graan to the Bath faithful - if they don’t get results quickly that could turn ugly at the Rec

Surely can't be worse than where they are currently.

And let's be honest, rugby that wins games is seldom turgid in the eyes of the fans on the winning side (unless they've become really spoiled)...

[tigerburnie]

Their fans have taken to Wiggy, I've been told in no uncertain terms we won't be getting him back any time soon lol.

[Rugbygramps]

Their fans have taken to Wiggy, I've been told in no uncertain terms we won't be getting him back any time soon lol.

I read that the feeling is mutual Wiggy loves it there

[loretta]

There but for the grace of Borthwick....

[Tigers86asw]

It’s interesting how they reference Leinster quite a bit. Their monopolisation of Irish rugby must make the other provinces very envious.

Munster just don’t have the talent pool or finances to compete.

[corko]

It’s interesting how they reference Leinster quite a bit. Their monopolisation of Irish rugby must make the other provinces very envious.

Munster just don’t have the talent pool or finances to compete.

Where do I start ?

Leinster are the undisputed best team, but as importantly, best organisation in Ireland. In a way they were fortunate that firstly Ulster, and then Munster had success, while Leinster were seen as a joke, perennial bridesmaids. Massive credit to the Leinster CEO Mick Dawson, who developed into a top class administrator, for creating a professional organisation, and had a blank canvass to create a player development structure that looked for talent within the schools but also the youth sections of clubs. Finally, as Leinster gained momentum, they had the financial backing, and access to the Aviva for big money generating games.

Munster, I would argue, got success early on the back of a rich seam of talent arriving at the same time. However, the administration behind it was amateurish at best, incompetent at worst, thinking the success would always be there. Even before Munster's success, Munster clubs dominated the All Ireland League from its inception in 1991 and by the time the Munster Pro team started drawing big crowds the clubs were demanding a big slice of the tickets. There was also a big rivalry between Cork and Limerick.

Throughput the years they have been bogged down with incompetence, a lack of vision, bringing cheapo solutions, while getting caught by the financial crash at a time when the Limerick powerbrokers pushed for Thomond to be upgraded ahead of Musgrave Park in Cork, pushing Munster Rugby to spend big on TP, which it then couldn't service the debt on, requiring the IRFU to step in to restructure the loan.

During that time they've not spent enough where it matters, plus the initial academy structure was set up literally from a photocopy of the Leinster one. Schools rugby is vastly stronger in Leinster compared to Munster, but Munster prioritised the Munster A schools as little mini academies, cherry picking from the youth sections of clubs along the way.

Things do appear to be changing though, as particularly West Cork clubs are being a bit of a powerhouse in Munster underage rugby, plus many other country teams are seeing their young players being involved....and there is great hope as Lenihan alluded to, for the future, but Munster need to get it's coaching :censored: in order.

Munster made big mistakes in the appointment of Mcgahan in the past and laterally Van Graan, and from what I hear, there's a feeling that they will move back to a more Munster ethos, having had enough of the South African influence. There have been rumours about that Rowntree will become Head Coach, and the Georgian coach will become forwards coach, with a new DOR to be appointed. They were looking for Mike Prendergast to become backs coach but that doesn't seem likely now.

[tigerburnie]

I expect Munster to turn over that 5 point lead that Exeter have and go through at home, their biggest game of the season in my opinion.

[Scott1]

It’s interesting how they reference Leinster quite a bit. Their monopolisation of Irish rugby must make the other provinces very envious.

Munster just don’t have the talent pool or finances to compete.

Where do I start ?

Leinster are the undisputed best team, but as importantly, best organisation in Ireland. In a way they were fortunate that firstly Ulster, and then Munster had success, while Leinster were seen as a joke, perennial bridesmaids. Massive credit to the Leinster CEO Mick Dawson, who developed into a top class administrator, for creating a professional organisation, and had a blank canvass to create a player development structure that looked for talent within the schools but also the youth sections of clubs. Finally, as Leinster gained momentum, they had the financial backing, and access to the Aviva for big money generating games.

Munster, I would argue, got success early on the back of a rich seam of talent arriving at the same time. However, the administration behind it was amateurish at best, incompetent at worst, thinking the success would always be there. Even before Munster's success, Munster clubs dominated the All Ireland League from its inception in 1991 and by the time the Munster Pro team started drawing big crowds the clubs were demanding a big slice of the tickets. There was also a big rivalry between Cork and Limerick.

Throughput the years they have been bogged down with incompetence, a lack of vision, bringing cheapo solutions, while getting caught by the financial crash at a time when the Limerick powerbrokers pushed for Thomond to be upgraded ahead of Musgrave Park in Cork, pushing Munster Rugby to spend big on TP, which it then couldn't service the debt on, requiring the IRFU to step in to restructure the loan.

During that time they've not spent enough where it matters, plus the initial academy structure was set up literally from a photocopy of the Leinster one. Schools rugby is vastly stronger in Leinster compared to Munster, but Munster prioritised the Munster A schools as little mini academies, cherry picking from the youth sections of clubs along the way.

Things do appear to be changing though, as particularly West Cork clubs are being a bit of a powerhouse in Munster underage rugby, plus many other country teams are seeing their young players being involved....and there is great hope as Lenihan alluded to, for the future, but Munster need to get it's coaching in order.

Munster made big mistakes in the appointment of Mcgahan in the past and laterally Van Graan, and from what I hear, there's a feeling that they will move back to a more Munster ethos, having had enough of the South African influence. There have been rumours about that Rowntree will become Head Coach, and the Georgian coach will become forwards coach, with a new DOR to be appointed. They were looking for Mike Prendergast to become backs coach but that doesn't seem likely now.

Thanks for that post!

[corko]

Thanks for that post!

No worries

BTW, I believe it's likely that Tigers will be signing a former Munster player, and if correct I think he will suit you perfectly.

[Scott1]

Thanks for that post!

No worries

BTW, I believe it's likely that Tigers will be signing a former Munster player, and if correct I think he will suit you perfectly.

Please ,tell us more!

[Old Hob]

The Guardian article does sound like Munster were exactly like Tigers - but in the days of Johnno and Deano and Cockers. And those days are gone. I watched the kerfuffle in the game today where there was a lot of pushing and shoving and Wiese had his shirt ripped and thought back to the days of Johnno and Julian White and reckoned there would have been some flat out Frenchmen. But, as I say, those days are gone and we are ,rightly, concerned with players mental health as much as their physical and training ground humiliation/ playing "It'll be lonely this Christmas" when someone has lost a relationship has gone too. It looks as though Munster need the Borthwick effect (but not Borthwick).