Refs and Sarries

[wigworth]

Ok so here is the breakdown of the cards in the first 10 games vs the last 10 or so games (most teams have played 20 games but some have played 21 or 19).

Leicester - first ten 8 yellows - second ten 9 yellows
Saracens - first ten 2 yellows - second ten 2 yellows
Harlequins - first ten 4 yellows - second ten 7 yellows
Exeter - first ten 1 yellow - second eleven 2 yellows 2 reds
Northampton - first ten 6 yellows - second ten 4 yellows
Sale - first ten 3 yellows 2 reds - second ten 4 yellows
Gloucester - first ten 6 yellows - second ten 7 yellows
London Irish - first ten 4 yellows 1 red - second ten 8 yellows 2 reds
Wasps - first ten 6 yellows 2 reds - second ten 3 yellows
Bristol - first ten 6 yellows - second ten 10 yellows 2 reds
Newcastle - first ten 4 yellows 1 red - second nine 3 yellows 1 red
Worcester - first ten 7 yellows 1 red - second eleven 5 yellows 2 reds
Bath - first ten 9 yellows 1 red - second nine 5 yellows 1 red

[wigworth]

Some interesting things I found was that Bath had 5 games where they had 2 cards in a game. Bristol, London Irish and Tigers had 4 games where they had 2 or more cards in a game.

Bristol seem to really take the cake though with 2 games where they received 3 yellow cards (In one of these games all 3 players were off the field at the same time) and 1 game where they had 3 yellows and a red.

[chris111]

I do feel that a lot of our yellow cards are for silly errors rather than just preventing tries. Nothing to back that up, I may be completely wrong.

I think Sarries are very good at judging when and where to give away penalties. And, yes, they have been fortunate over the last few weeks to escape more cards.

Sometimes it is just coincidence. To really establish a bias (conscious or otherwise) towards Sarries you'd need to do quite a lot of analysis of decisions by each referee for each team and compare similarities/differences between incidents. Even then, your conclusion would contain lots of ifs and buts.

Also worth bearing in mind that we are all human beings, just like the referees, and therefore we are also vulnerable to bias. I would suggest that Saracens having a low yellow card count fits quite nicely into a lot of Tigers fans' biases.

You’re right, of course, that referees are susceptible to unconscious bias in the same way as we all are. I’d hope that as in other professional arenas they spend a lot of time discussing this and finding ways of mitigating the effects. Thus doesn’t, of course, guarantee bias can be totally eradicated - we know how difficult it is to change entrenched perceptions about a whole host of issues - but on balance my feeling is that any advantage gained is minimal.

I’d say referees have a much harder job countering things like the psychological influence of a home crowd - or of the reputation of individual players, for instance. I do think that in the hypothetical (and highly unlikely!) event of George Ford and Jasper Wiese committing identical acts of foul play, referees would start with a strong disposition to treat them differently!

[peteD]

Ok so here is the breakdown of the cards in the first 10 games vs the last 10 or so games (most teams have played 20 games but some have played 21 or 19).

Leicester - first ten 8 yellows - second ten 9 yellows
Saracens - first ten 2 yellows - second ten 2 yellows
Harlequins - first ten 4 yellows - second ten 7 yellows
Exeter - first ten 1 yellow - second eleven 2 yellows 2 reds
Northampton - first ten 6 yellows - second ten 4 yellows
Sale - first ten 3 yellows 2 reds - second ten 4 yellows
Gloucester - first ten 6 yellows - second ten 7 yellows
London Irish - first ten 4 yellows 1 red - second ten 8 yellows 2 reds
Wasps - first ten 6 yellows 2 reds - second ten 3 yellows
Bristol - first ten 6 yellows - second ten 10 yellows 2 reds
Newcastle - first ten 4 yellows 1 red - second nine 3 yellows 1 red
Worcester - first ten 7 yellows 1 red - second eleven 5 yellows 2 reds
Bath - first ten 9 yellows 1 red - second nine 5 yellows 1 red

great work! so much for my theory of top sides being rewarded!

[mol2]

Perrhaps it reflects more disciplined offending by Saries.
If the whole line encroaches off side together it stands out far less than one or two players doing so.

I think we have not, in reality commited more cynical offenses than other sides, probably fewer as we have been dominating most of our games, but have been more unlucky and have players binned for the same offense that a different ref against a different side might not have given.

As I recall we have been marched back 10m more times than any other side I have seen and certainly more than in previous seasons, which suggests we have a yapping problem which doesn not help when the call is marginal regarding penalty or penalty & card.

[GETHIN EXILE]

I feel we have had some unlucky yellow cards, Ashton's for 3 offsides in the same attack phases was particularly unlucky as opposition teams have got away with things like " in at the side" in consecutive mauls against us without getting a card. Nadolo's "deliberate" knock on should have been knock on only, as he was tackled off the ball and not given a chance to attempt to regather the ball.
On another tack can anyone explain why if the defending side collapse a maul it is a penalty, but if the attacking side take the maul down and the ball is not playable it is only a defensive scrum? Surely in both cases the maul has been collapsed which is a penalty offence!

[Tiglon]

I feel we have had some unlucky yellow cards, Ashton's for 3 offsides in the same attack phases was particularly unlucky as opposition teams have got away with things like " in at the side" in consecutive mauls against us without getting a card. Nadolo's "deliberate" knock on should have been knock on only, as he was tackled off the ball and not given a chance to attempt to regather the ball.
On another tack can anyone explain why if the defending side collapse a maul it is a penalty, but if the attacking side take the maul down and the ball is not playable it is only a defensive scrum? Surely in both cases the maul has been collapsed which is a penalty offence!

It's only a penalty if you "intentionally" collapse a maul. It's probably quite a reasonable assumption that if the attacking team collapses it that they didn't do it on purpose.