6 Nations 2022

[Robespierre]

Scott, you need to look at the wider picture.
Italy have always struggled in the 6N, but their U20 team looks very promising, which bodes well for the senior XV in a couple of years. Now what if South Africa appear and Italy get booted out, as is probable, what incentive is there for the younger players if they can't measure themselves against the other 6N teams? Answer - none!
The 6N is a European competition, and European it must remain.
However, with the multi millions that CVC want to put forward to bring South Africa in, coupled with the fact that South African sides are currently in the United Rugby Championship, there's a likelihood that money talks, to the detriment of the second tier nations (and I include Italy), and the Springboks may well come north. I sincerely hope not.

The second tier of European rugby needs developing.
Surprisingly, Spain are currently leading the Rugby Europe Championship after two rounds and Georgia are third (the others are Romania, Portugal, Russia, Netherlands). Now if a relegation play-off could be organised in the future between the last team in the 6N and the winner of the Rugby European Championship, it's a step in the right direction, with the winner guaranteed at least three seasons in the 6N to give them time to improve (just one season will surely see them be relegated).

Sadly, CVC's profiteering will probably tip the balance, which in my humble opinion will not be in the best interests of European International rugby.

Italy were at their best quite recently when Conor O’Shea was in charge and he had full running of the league teams as well as the international side. But they still wasn’t good enough I’m afraid. So we keep waiting around until they might be? It’s a mockery of elite sport imo that a team plays year in year out guaranteeing the other sides a big win and possibly helping toward points difference if there might be a tie at the top. Ok they pick up the very rare odd win but thats embarrassing for me for the elite international global competition,maybe the better idea might be to arrange the Pacific islands teams to tour Italy. Let them grow from there. We can’t keep giving them an out just because their U20 team might come up trumps.

A rather short-sighted opinion.

[Scott1]

Scott, you need to look at the wider picture.
Italy have always struggled in the 6N, but their U20 team looks very promising, which bodes well for the senior XV in a couple of years. Now what if South Africa appear and Italy get booted out, as is probable, what incentive is there for the younger players if they can't measure themselves against the other 6N teams? Answer - none!
The 6N is a European competition, and European it must remain.
However, with the multi millions that CVC want to put forward to bring South Africa in, coupled with the fact that South African sides are currently in the United Rugby Championship, there's a likelihood that money talks, to the detriment of the second tier nations (and I include Italy), and the Springboks may well come north. I sincerely hope not.

The second tier of European rugby needs developing.
Surprisingly, Spain are currently leading the Rugby Europe Championship after two rounds and Georgia are third (the others are Romania, Portugal, Russia, Netherlands). Now if a relegation play-off could be organised in the future between the last team in the 6N and the winner of the Rugby European Championship, it's a step in the right direction, with the winner guaranteed at least three seasons in the 6N to give them time to improve (just one season will surely see them be relegated).

Sadly, CVC's profiteering will probably tip the balance, which in my humble opinion will not be in the best interests of European International rugby.

Italy were at their best quite recently when Conor O’Shea was in charge and he had full running of the league teams as well as the international side. But they still wasn’t good enough I’m afraid. So we keep waiting around until they might be? It’s a mockery of elite sport imo that a team plays year in year out guaranteeing the other sides a big win and possibly helping toward points difference if there might be a tie at the top. Ok they pick up the very rare odd win but thats embarrassing for me for the elite international global competition,maybe the better idea might be to arrange the Pacific islands teams to tour Italy. Let them grow from there. We can’t keep giving them an out just because their U20 team might come up trumps.

A rather short-sighted opinion.

Not really. The last time they were competitive in the tournament was 2013,almost 10 years ago. I believe they’ve won one game since then. And youre happy with that?

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Italy were far better than Nil at the weekend, if there isn't an attempt to give the lesser teams a leg up, Union will become as limited worldwide as League is.
The only reason SA want into the 6Ns & the other countries do is money.
If they come in don't be surprised if a lot of the SA players head back South.

[Robespierre]

Italy were far better than Nil at the weekend, if there isn't an attempt to give the lesser teams a leg up, Union will become as limited worldwide as League is.
The only reason SA want into the 6Ns & the other countries do is money.
If they come in don't be surprised if a lot of the SA players head back South.

Well put!

[Old Hob]

I think it took 5 years (maybe more, can't remember) to register a win by France. And then not many after that. These things take time. I want the 6N to stay European.

[Tiglon]

Italy are what they are. Nearly 20 years of perseverance and they are less competitive than when they joined. Most of their best players have been Argentinians. There simply isn't much interest in rugby in Italy.

Why does rugby need to try to be a global game? It never has been and it never will be.

To develop the international game let's put money into the nations who already love the sport and help them to be more competitive rather than just donors to their richer neighbours. Let's commit money to making sure the Pacific Islands get meaningful competition every season and that they can pay their players enough to actually play for their countries.

Why try to persuade Italians to care about rugby whilst ignoring countries who are begging to be more involved?

Money, money, money. Counter productive in the long term though. CVC and others may make a profit but it won't make the game stronger.

Rugby is a niche sport and always will be. Let's accept that, embrace it even, and help everyone who loves the game prosper, rather than the incessant desperate courting of wealthier countries.

[Scott1]

So how long a leg up do we keep giving them? Another ten years perhaps so they can maybe register two wins again in the competition? 15?

[Cardiff Tig]

Italy are what they are. Nearly 20 years of perseverance and they are less competitive than when they joined. Most of their best players have been Argentinians. There simply isn't much interest in rugby in Italy.

Why does rugby need to try to be a global game? It never has been and it never will be.

To develop the international game let's put money into the nations who already love the sport and help them to be more competitive rather than just donors to their richer neighbours. Let's commit money to making sure the Pacific Islands get meaningful competition every season and that they can pay their players enough to actually play for their countries.

Why try to persuade Italians to care about rugby whilst ignoring countries who are begging to be more involved?

Money, money, money. Counter productive in the long term though. CVC and others may make a profit but it won't make the game stronger.

Rugby is a niche sport and always will be. Let's accept that, embrace it even, and help everyone who loves the game prosper, rather than the incessant desperate courting of wealthier countries.

I'm not sure this argument makes sense. The fact that Italian club rugby is now at its strongest, and the U20's and other age grade teams are clearly on the up, shows that rugby now has a decent foothold. Yes, it will never be the most popular sport in Italy but it will also never be near the top of popular sports in England either. Clearly, Italy should have put more focus on building the system 20 years ago when they had some very decent players in the national team. But they've now righted that and will undoubtedly get better in the next 3-4 years.

Happy with a guaranteed TBP win for every team that plays Italy? Why? That's not competition ,waste of time!

My point is that I'm strongly against SA joining the 6N. And unless we want it to go back to the 5N (which is not going to help develop European rugby) then Italy is by far the best choice. Georgia (or any other European nation) will also be a guaranteed 5 point win for the tier 1 nations, they have even less infrastructure to become competitive in the long term than Italy does.

[Soggypitch]

Why can't there be a 2nd tier competition with the winners playing off against the bottom club in the 6Ns?

That way it would help to promote rugby more across Europe and give the tier 2 nations a chance to get into the 6Ns and keep Italy on their toes!

[Cardiff Tig]

But there is a second tier competition already - the Rugby Europe Championship as its now called. Italy got into the 6N because they were beating the top teams, or competing on a very similar level, on a semi-regular basis. Georgia are nowhere near that level, and even if they fluke a win in a one-off game against Italy (which is unlikely) they won't benefit from a single season in the 6Ns being at a much lower level.

[Tiglon]

Italian club rugby is now at its strongest

Is it?

Back in the late 90's and early 00's Bennetton were averaging 2 wins a season in the Heinken Cup, now it's approx 1 win every 2/3 years...

Zebre struggle to get more than 3 wins in an entire URC season.

Italy U20s have just beaten England for the first time, but they also got stuffed (as usual) by France the week before. One win is not enough to signal "on the up", IMO.

Personally, I don't see much evidence that Italy are improving, but I'd still rather have them than SA. 5 Nations would be preferable to me (with a relegation playoff vs 2nd tier for the bottom team).

Italian rugby was at it's strongest 20 years ago and has been in decline ever since.

[TigerFeetSteve]

Italian rugby, has at points had some global superstars in it.

Let's face it Dominguez was one of the worlds best fly halves (a position they have failed to fill since, though Garbisi is their best one since). Plus Parisse, Bortalami & Castro at times.

Years ago you looked at their side and it was a couple of stars plus some club players.

Now they do have more depth, but less out and out world beating players and more "international" standard players.

I no longer look at the bench and wince thinking how has so and so got an international cap.

They may not have as may worldbeaters, but they are hard to predict, what they do have is a more even level of players in their national set up. If you added a peak Bortalami and Parisse to the current team they would be winning a chunk more games than atm.

[Scott1]

Ronan Kelleher ruled out of rest of 6N with shoulder injury

[Tiglon]

The thing about Castro, Parisse & Dominguez is, they are all Argentinian. Now the Pumas are much stronger than 20 years ago, their best players want to play for Argentina, so Italy are left with picking up the scraps of other nations rejects - if you look at the XV who started vs France, a third of them were born outside Italy and learnt to play rugby outside of Italy.

Look how far Argentina have come since joining the top tier down under competition. That's what progress looks like, and it's happened because enough Argentinians love rugby.

[ABClub]

Rugby is a niche sport and always will be. Let's accept that, embrace it even, and help everyone who loves the game prosper, rather than the incessant desperate courting of wealthier countries.

The issue with this view is that the there are a far wider range of things people can get involved in as the world develops. So that interest in established rugby nations gets spread thinner and thinner.

We are already seeing this in rugby with the massive drop off in mens amateur numbers.

Cricket is a good example of changing trends hurting a sport like that. Go back 30 or 40 years, county grounds got good attendances for 4 day games. Now it's 3 men and a dog type stuff. There's more options for what people invest their time into.

Not just outside sport either, but other sports growing. On cricket again, for a long time it was by a distance the second biggest sport in the world behind football due to crickets interest in high population parts of the subcontinent. Basketball's growing interest outside of America, especially Asia, is coming for that second place though. Rewind 20 years ago, that would have seemed ludicrous.

Standing still means stagnation, getting overtaken, becoming more and more niche to the point of obscurity.