Future of recreational rugby?

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chris111
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by chris111 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:48 pm

This article is a couple of years old, but thought it worth re-sharing.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/ ... semi-final

One for all those who find Kyle Sinckler an annoying wind-up merchant on the field. For this off-field work, he can do no wrong in my book!

Nofrontteeth
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by Nofrontteeth » Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:50 pm

Sk88,
Thanks for reply. Re G Lineker education I acknowledge.
GL was as I remember at City of Leicester Grammar, hence playing Rugby, in my day at Humberston Gate (now Age Concern). It then relocated alongside Spencefield Lane Schools then merged hence the mixed sport curriculum over the years.


What ever the history it's about now that counts and I support a strong feeder culture, as was, between Tigers and all local schools and clubs.

northerntiger
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by northerntiger » Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:53 pm

chris111 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:46 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:15 pm
LE18 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 5:50 pm


I agree with your assessment of the coaching etc at private schools, I have had this discussion previously with J Griffin, who teaches at a state school.
I also had a part time few years at Bishop Veseys, the first while Zac Feaunati was head of rugby. However the rugby dept soon went after Zac left. An interesting debate at the time was how some Independents prioritised big lumps over skills, just to win games, and the bad effect on rugby in general.
My current berth in Stafford is a bog standard broke high school (most non-academy state schools were before the plague, more so now), and PE makes genuine efforts to teach rugby. Stafford RFC is close by, and a few kids go on to play but the chances of talent being spotted 🤣
Heartening to hear that your school is persevering with rugby….sadly I’d imagine you’re one of a dwindling minority. Do you actually play matches, or just include in PE? Not sure too many Leicester schools play actual matches now - my youngest son’s stopped some years ago. A few primary schools make a valiant effort to provide mini-rugby (including one where I’m a governor - they have a fantastic sports offer, despite being a city school with not a blade of grass on site!)
Most schools outside the grammar/private sector only have rugby as part of PE. Sports fixtures are run as an after school club, which generally is just football.
When I was a shiny new teacher I tried to start up a rugby after school club. Initially had a fair bit of interest, but it fell down due to the difficulty of getting fixtures. There were a couple of emerging schools tourmanments, but they were about one per term. The pupils I had wanted to play, not just have training sessions after school. The private/grammars have fixture lists set in stone, and have games afternoons.
Unless sport is more prioritised in state schools, the status quo will continue

Old Hob
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by Old Hob » Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:07 pm

Another missing element is the works teams. When in Bedford I played against the Britannia Iron and Steel works side and the police. In Nottingham, Boots used to run all sorts of sports teams for both sexes and the civil service had a number of sports clubs. I have also played against Shell and I know that other large companies had sports grounds including rugby pitches.
Omnia dicta fortiora si dicta Latina

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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by LE18 » Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:08 pm

northerntiger wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 7:53 pm
chris111 wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:46 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 6:15 pm

I also had a part time few years at Bishop Veseys, the first while Zac Feaunati was head of rugby. However the rugby dept soon went after Zac left. An interesting debate at the time was how some Independents prioritised big lumps over skills, just to win games, and the bad effect on rugby in general.
My current berth in Stafford is a bog standard broke high school (most non-academy state schools were before the plague, more so now), and PE makes genuine efforts to teach rugby. Stafford RFC is close by, and a few kids go on to play but the chances of talent being spotted 🤣
Heartening to hear that your school is persevering with rugby….sadly I’d imagine you’re one of a dwindling minority. Do you actually play matches, or just include in PE? Not sure too many Leicester schools play actual matches now - my youngest son’s stopped some years ago. A few primary schools make a valiant effort to provide mini-rugby (including one where I’m a governor - they have a fantastic sports offer, despite being a city school with not a blade of grass on site!)
Most schools outside the grammar/private sector only have rugby as part of PE. Sports fixtures are run as an after school club, which generally is just football.
When I was a shiny new teacher I tried to start up a rugby after school club. Initially had a fair bit of interest, but it fell down due to the difficulty of getting fixtures. There were a couple of emerging schools tourmanments, but they were about one per term. The pupils I had wanted to play, not just have training sessions after school. The private/grammars have fixture lists set in stone, and have games afternoons.
Unless sport is more prioritised in state schools, the status quo will continue
I applaud your efforts, especially teaching them the basic arts of rugby, its sad that you could not find matches for your pupils who wanted to play, but I would ask a question of you, did you encourage your enthusiastic kids to go and join a club side and play a match at the weekend? I'm sure they would have been most welcome.
I would just add that most Private schools also have matches in the evenings and weekends as most are boarding and have full time coaches.

mightymouse
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by mightymouse » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:00 am

Having played recreational rugby for over 30years starting at Grammar School and then having associations with Loughborough, Belgrave, Stamford and South Leicester, I have long been worried about the state of local rugby.
I find it staggering that clubs that used to get 6 or 7 teams out ( if you include colts and vets) on a Saturday can barely get 2 out.
I think there are 2 major problems (one of which may sound a little counter intuitive).
The first is without doubt professionalism. I thought this right from the very beginning of professionalism circa 1995. It was inevitable as the way the tide had been flowing ever since the infamous “boot money” to win bonuses and beyond, even :censored: would not have tried to turn
It back, however there was one critical error made in those early days. I said at the time and I still believe today that only the top 2 or 3 layers should have been allowed player payment. Payment lower in the game has been it’s ruination. Why would a guy play for the club 2nds or 3rds and pay for the privilege through subs and drink in the club bar, whilst a parachuted in player plays in his position and is paid to do so? That cuckoo player probably doesn’t ever stop for a drink .. why should he? He has no loyalty to that club! His mates are elsewhere.
I witnessed this at several clubs over the years. Some rise high up the leagues and the moment they suffer the ignominy of relegation, the mercenaries are off and the club collapses because all the disillusioned stalwarts have gone. That was most starkly seen at South Leicester when the catastrophic nature of the collapse led to a dangerous drubbing by a record score and a withdrawal from the league. I believe if those clubs had been left amateur this would never have happened.
The second more controversial reason, I believe is mini rugby. The clubs were desperate to bring in playing from 6 years old and as someone pointed out they seem to thrive .. a Sunday morning Dads and Lads jamboree. Hundreds of kids and their attendant adults bringing in much needed revenue flogging burgers and pop. However whilst I thought that seemed great at the start of it all after 30 odd years of it my question is, where are they all at 16? I could not understand it. When I was 16 all I wanted to do was play rugby with my mates on a Saturday and then go out for a few pints. What happened? I came to the conclusion that it was because I first played at 11 at School not at 6 at the club. I played until I was 43! The kids who played at 6 had played for 10 years by the time they were 16 and it was a thing they did as a little kid with their dad just like I took my daughter to pony riding at that age. Only a very few , often the most talented, carry it on, the rest find different, perceived more fashionable stuff to do at 16 and pony riding or rugby in the case, is passé .. kids stuff .. embarrassing dad stuff, not for cool kids! Sad but true I’m afraid.
Concussion is a recent but worrying addition to the mix and the over cautious parents may now also be a factor.
The solution.. ban payment below the 3rd teir and only allow taster days for playing before 11 years old .. take them to watch Tigers instead and make them want to play not pushed into it by well meaning parents trying to live their own dreams!
And as a PS definitely NO to helmets.. I would actually ban neoprene scrum caps .. gives false sense of security and makes you do tackles in a way you never would without.. gum shield and bandage around the ears for second row and 8 … Nothing else above the waste except for a shirt. Including shoulder padding . that used to be the law and still should be!!!

mightymouse
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by mightymouse » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:04 am

Not sure why a Viking King of England from 1016 has been censored!! 😂😂😂

Soggypitch
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by Soggypitch » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:06 am

With regard to junior rugby, it is very much in the hands of parents. As are all junior sports.

Very few state schools now really focus on rugby and I would say that by far the biggest influence is the local clubs not the schools (private schools excepted).

It is very evident to me that the vast majority of children play the sports that their parents do. Running parents get their kids running, rugby enthusiastic parents take their kids to mini rugby on Sunday mornings, keen golfers take their kids golfing at an early age etc............yes there are examples of kids that thrive in a sport without parental support/encouragement, but they are the exceptions.

Some would say you shouldn't push kids into anything. Wrong. Push them as much as you can (within reason) there will quickly come a time when if the kids really don't like something, they will kick back and you will have to accept their decision, but until that point keep on taking them to rugby, swimming or whatever it is your family does!!

So providing we still have enthusiastic parents and coaches prepared to give up their time, the future of junior rugby is positive.
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by Soggypitch » Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:16 am

mightymouse wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:00 am
Having played recreational rugby for over 30years starting at Grammar School and then having associations with Loughborough, Belgrave, Stamford and South Leicester, I have long been worried about the state of local rugby.
I find it staggering that clubs that used to get 6 or 7 teams out ( if you include colts and vets) on a Saturday can barely get 2 out.
I think there are 2 major problems (one of which may sound a little counter intuitive).
The first is without doubt professionalism. I thought this right from the very beginning of professionalism circa 1995. It was inevitable as the way the tide had been flowing ever since the infamous “boot money” to win bonuses and beyond, even :censored: would not have tried to turn
It back, however there was one critical error made in those early days. I said at the time and I still believe today that only the top 2 or 3 layers should have been allowed player payment. Payment lower in the game has been it’s ruination. Why would a guy play for the club 2nds or 3rds and pay for the privilege through subs and drink in the club bar, whilst a parachuted in player plays in his position and is paid to do so? That cuckoo player probably doesn’t ever stop for a drink .. why should he? He has no loyalty to that club! His mates are elsewhere.
I witnessed this at several clubs over the years. Some rise high up the leagues and the moment they suffer the ignominy of relegation, the mercenaries are off and the club collapses because all the disillusioned stalwarts have gone. That was most starkly seen at South Leicester when the catastrophic nature of the collapse led to a dangerous drubbing by a record score and a withdrawal from the league. I believe if those clubs had been left amateur this would never have happened.
The second more controversial reason, I believe is mini rugby. The clubs were desperate to bring in playing from 6 years old and as someone pointed out they seem to thrive .. a Sunday morning Dads and Lads jamboree. Hundreds of kids and their attendant adults bringing in much needed revenue flogging burgers and pop. However whilst I thought that seemed great at the start of it all after 30 odd years of it my question is, where are they all at 16? I could not understand it. When I was 16 all I wanted to do was play rugby with my mates on a Saturday and then go out for a few pints. What happened? I came to the conclusion that it was because I first played at 11 at School not at 6 at the club. I played until I was 43! The kids who played at 6 had played for 10 years by the time they were 16 and it was a thing they did as a little kid with their dad just like I took my daughter to pony riding at that age. Only a very few , often the most talented, carry it on, the rest find different, perceived more fashionable stuff to do at 16 and pony riding or rugby in the case, is passé .. kids stuff .. embarrassing dad stuff, not for cool kids! Sad but true I’m afraid.
Concussion is a recent but worrying addition to the mix and the over cautious parents may now also be a factor.
The solution.. ban payment below the 3rd teir and only allow taster days for playing before 11 years old .. take them to watch Tigers instead and make them want to play not pushed into it by well meaning parents trying to live their own dreams!
And as a PS definitely NO to helmets.. I would actually ban neoprene scrum caps .. gives false sense of security and makes you do tackles in a way you never would without.. gum shield and bandage around the ears for second row and 8 … Nothing else above the waste except for a shirt. Including shoulder padding . that used to be the law and still should be!!!
Some great points there mightymouse and you are right that the number of kids playing mini/junior rugby diminishes as the age group rises. Yes that is partly because some kids get bored with the sport because they start too young, but it is also a natural wastage, in the sense that (as you say) as kids get older they make their own choices about their leisure, many don't like the physicality of full contact and there are lots of other sports competing with rugby and non sporting distractions, as kids get to mid teens.
All we can do as parents is our best. Likewise the clubs.
Soggypitch

LE18
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Re: Future of recreational rugby?

Post by LE18 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:27 pm

mightymouse wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:00 am
Having played recreational rugby for over 30years starting at Grammar School and then having associations with Loughborough, Belgrave, Stamford and South Leicester, I have long been worried about the state of local rugby.
I find it staggering that clubs that used to get 6 or 7 teams out ( if you include colts and vets) on a Saturday can barely get 2 out.
I think there are 2 major problems (one of which may sound a little counter intuitive).
The first is without doubt professionalism. I thought this right from the very beginning of professionalism circa 1995. It was inevitable as the way the tide had been flowing ever since the infamous “boot money” to win bonuses and beyond, even :censored: would not have tried to turn
It back, however there was one critical error made in those early days. I said at the time and I still believe today that only the top 2 or 3 layers should have been allowed player payment. Payment lower in the game has been it’s ruination. Why would a guy play for the club 2nds or 3rds and pay for the privilege through subs and drink in the club bar, whilst a parachuted in player plays in his position and is paid to do so? That cuckoo player probably doesn’t ever stop for a drink .. why should he? He has no loyalty to that club! His mates are elsewhere.
I witnessed this at several clubs over the years. Some rise high up the leagues and the moment they suffer the ignominy of relegation, the mercenaries are off and the club collapses because all the disillusioned stalwarts have gone. That was most starkly seen at South Leicester when the catastrophic nature of the collapse led to a dangerous drubbing by a record score and a withdrawal from the league. I believe if those clubs had been left amateur this would never have happened.
The second more controversial reason, I believe is mini rugby. The clubs were desperate to bring in playing from 6 years old and as someone pointed out they seem to thrive .. a Sunday morning Dads and Lads jamboree. Hundreds of kids and their attendant adults bringing in much needed revenue flogging burgers and pop. However whilst I thought that seemed great at the start of it all after 30 odd years of it my question is, where are they all at 16? I could not understand it. When I was 16 all I wanted to do was play rugby with my mates on a Saturday and then go out for a few pints. What happened? I came to the conclusion that it was because I first played at 11 at School not at 6 at the club. I played until I was 43! The kids who played at 6 had played for 10 years by the time they were 16 and it was a thing they did as a little kid with their dad just like I took my daughter to pony riding at that age. Only a very few , often the most talented, carry it on, the rest find different, perceived more fashionable stuff to do at 16 and pony riding or rugby in the case, is passé .. kids stuff .. embarrassing dad stuff, not for cool kids! Sad but true I’m afraid.
Concussion is a recent but worrying addition to the mix and the over cautious parents may now also be a factor.
The solution.. ban payment below the 3rd teir and only allow taster days for playing before 11 years old .. take them to watch Tigers instead and make them want to play not pushed into it by well meaning parents trying to live their own dreams!
And as a PS definitely NO to helmets.. I would actually ban neoprene scrum caps .. gives false sense of security and makes you do tackles in a way you never would without.. gum shield and bandage around the ears for second row and 8 … Nothing else above the waste except for a shirt. Including shoulder padding . that used to be the law and still should be!!!
MM you make some great points there.
Regarding payments I cant comment as I'm too old to have experienced any serious payments in my time, it was only mentioned as a Welsh thing.
Regarding Juniors, I had never considered the problem starts at 6, its a good theory. I think its important to look more closely at the 16 year olds and question why they pack up? If you remember more and more kids are now encouraged to go to University, unlike in our day when it was get a 5 day job, when you wanted to play sport on you days off at the weekend.
The Woke and PC brigade, the more professional attitude, training and body building elements, size and conditioning in the game, all these have probably put youths and parents off. Kids seem to have more money for girl friends, drinking, cars etc, all these add up to the decline over 16. I don't think colts rugby helps, those nearing the 15+ probably cannot compete with those 17+s. and some get left out.
Anyway good points you made. :smt052

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