Premiership rugby referees review panel

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Pellsey
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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Pellsey » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:48 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:52 pm
Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:21 pm
, but I do not understand the current censorship for players, who are not able to give their opinion on the compentence of the referee.
I believe that it is called respect, something that is not shown in some other sports. There are channels of communications that can be used to interact with the officials both on and off the field.
The Coaches have an opportunity to hand any notes to the fourth official at half time, managing the Subs, etc, and they are passed over to the officials and taken on board.
Coaches are not allowed to go into the Officials room at half time to air any queries.
There is also an old phrase which says, "respect has to be earnt."

That said, I am very glad that the wendyball-style referee attacks do not happen in rugby. If this "censorship" stops this, I am all for it.
Last edited by Pellsey on Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Scott1 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:50 pm

The points about the standard of reffing were made even when we were winning. I and others made reference to the fact that sometimes it was akin to junior reffing where a team is getting hammered and the ref feels the need to try and even things up. That should never be happening at this level and that's what it felt like at times. The standard of reffing has been shocking for a while.

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Pellsey » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:51 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:50 pm
The points about the standard of reffing were made even when we were winning. I and others made reference to the fact that sometimes it was akin to junior reffing where a team is getting hammered and the ref feels the need to try and even things up. That should never be happening at this level and that's what it felt like at times. The standard of reffing has been shocking for a while.
Completely agree.

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Pellsey » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:53 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:44 pm
ourla wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:08 pm
Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:21 pm
I guess this thread was started because the result of the Wasps' game was defined by incompentent refereeing. Other games were not.
So it wasn't defined by us butchering a couple of line outs, or by Genge losing his head, or because we kept going for scrums rather than a 5m line out, or because we were bit underpowered in the back row (partly because Weise got stupid yellow cards), or because Wasps actually put up a bit of a fight in the second half. No, none of this. We lost because of a referee who has taken charge of 130 top flight rugby matches. Right.
Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:21 pm
I think there needs to be a far higher level of refereeing in the Premiership, especially. Some of them really need to be kicked out as they really ruin the sport in general, not to mention the enjoyment of the game for both spectators and players.
Yes, because there are dozens of far more competent referee's just waiting to take their place.
Please read the rest of my post. I also said "had we played better, we could have also won."

And yes, I agree with you regarding your second point, as I also said in my post. The problem is that there are few better, which is really worrying. There needs to be a far higher standard, and in order to get that, better training and more consistancy is needed. Shocking to think though that he has been allowed to ref 130 top flight games.

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:53 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:48 pm
baz1664 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:37 am
Be nice if they could find him a slot on Rugby Tonight!!
Wayne Barnes has done some bits on BT Sport Rugby Tonight shows previously.
Trouble is whilst still an "active" pro ref he can't highlight bad decisions, or fully explain the rational behind them.
I don't think anyone would want some of the football style ref bashing that goes on, but poor displays should be called out.
As I have said previously as most officials don't actually deal with the simple offences, what hope anything more nuanced.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by LE18 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:03 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:44 pm
ourla wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:08 pm
Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:21 pm
I guess this thread was started because the result of the Wasps' game was defined by incompentent refereeing. Other games were not.
So it wasn't defined by us butchering a couple of line outs, or by Genge losing his head, or because we kept going for scrums rather than a 5m line out, or because we were bit underpowered in the back row (partly because Weise got stupid yellow cards), or because Wasps actually put up a bit of a fight in the second half. No, none of this. We lost because of a referee who has taken charge of 130 top flight rugby matches. Right.
Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:21 pm
I think there needs to be a far higher level of refereeing in the Premiership, especially. Some of them really need to be kicked out as they really ruin the sport in general, not to mention the enjoyment of the game for both spectators and players.
Yes, because there are dozens of far more competent referee's just waiting to take their place.
Please read the rest of my post. I also said "had we played better, we could have also won."

And yes, I agree with you regarding your second point, as I also said in my post. The problem is that there are few better, which is really worrying. There needs to be a far higher standard, and in order to get that, better training and more consistancy is needed.
I'm sure there is plenty of training available for new refs, but where are those applicants? Kick out a few who are accused of being incompetent and who do we replace them with?
Some say ex players, both Dickson and Murphy were both ex scrum halves and would have a pretty good idea as to what goes on in and around the scrum, and they still get loads of criticism, so who do we get that is 100% competent,?No one, so we have to accept what we have, or maybe some on here need to take up the job!

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Scott1 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:08 pm

Seems a couple on here have had pepper on their eggs this morning 😂

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Pellsey » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:12 pm

LE18 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:03 pm
Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:44 pm
ourla wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:08 pm

So it wasn't defined by us butchering a couple of line outs, or by Genge losing his head, or because we kept going for scrums rather than a 5m line out, or because we were bit underpowered in the back row (partly because Weise got stupid yellow cards), or because Wasps actually put up a bit of a fight in the second half. No, none of this. We lost because of a referee who has taken charge of 130 top flight rugby matches. Right.


Yes, because there are dozens of far more competent referee's just waiting to take their place.
Please read the rest of my post. I also said "had we played better, we could have also won."

And yes, I agree with you regarding your second point, as I also said in my post. The problem is that there are few better, which is really worrying. There needs to be a far higher standard, and in order to get that, better training and more consistancy is needed.
I'm sure there is plenty of training available for new refs, but where are those applicants? Kick out a few who are accused of being incompetent and who do we replace them with?
Some say ex players, both Dickson and Murphy were both ex scrum halves and would have a pretty good idea as to what goes on in and around the scrum, and they still get loads of criticism, so who do we get that is 100% competent,?No one, so we have to accept what we have, or maybe some on here need to take up the job!
I don't know the solution. I just wish there were one!

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by LE18 » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:16 pm

Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:12 pm
LE18 wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:03 pm
Pellsey wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:44 pm


Please read the rest of my post. I also said "had we played better, we could have also won."

And yes, I agree with you regarding your second point, as I also said in my post. The problem is that there are few better, which is really worrying. There needs to be a far higher standard, and in order to get that, better training and more consistancy is needed.
I'm sure there is plenty of training available for new refs, but where are those applicants? Kick out a few who are accused of being incompetent and who do we replace them with?
Some say ex players, both Dickson and Murphy were both ex scrum halves and would have a pretty good idea as to what goes on in and around the scrum, and they still get loads of criticism, so who do we get that is 100% competent,?No one, so we have to accept what we have, or maybe some on here need to take up the job!
I don't know the solution. I just wish there were one!
Have a word with Scott1.

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:23 pm

Regards to the reffing vs Wasps. Yes arguably we got the rough end of the stick on two calls.
1. Pen try, was clearly a yellow but was it a pen try, possibly, possibly not (7 point swing)

2. No try at the end, pen try or more likely, the 5 from Youngs try (taken on the mark). Lets say Youngs scores it (7 point swing)

That's a lot of points swing.

Argubly add in there the JvP try.

On the flip side though less discussed is (which my Wasps supporting friend was angry about and thought they could have denied us the bp without)

1. Yellow/Red for Genge, he felt red, and even suggested without him there the late scrum pens would not be happening.

2. Montoya's try, he said the way Montoya didn't react meant he didn't think it was grounded, in fact he says the only one who thought he saw the grounding was the ref who even said to the TMO not to bother looking at the grounding of.

Ok not a perfect balance but there's a shout for the fact that a lot of very big decisions were debatable in the game and they didn't go in favour of one team much more than the other.

Essentially we agreed that big decisions could have pretty much swung the game by 14 points or so either way so if you want to take thd ref out of it you have to make sure you're winning comfortably.
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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by johnthegriff » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:25 pm

The point about a Referee Review Panel is that a referee's performance will be judged and assessed by people qualified to do so. Some questioning the performance of Foley, Tempest, CMK and others have never played the game or like me played it long ago and are not familiar with modern interpretations of the laws and are frankly annoyed by some of them but following a higher authorities instruction is not the fault of officials on the day.
We lost to Wasps because on the day we did not play well enough to win. Reffell got a yellow card because he tackled a man not in possession of the ball, had the ball been passed it would have been an outstanding try saving tackle, as it was a yellow card was fair enough, penalty try??? I personally don't think there was evidence to say a try would probably have been scored but I can see where the ref was coming from. The cancellation of JVP's try I thought was harsh as I don't think Steward's running line impacted on the score but again I see where the officials thought it might. The two scrum penalties on the line showed that the decision to go for the scrum was a good one and in my opinion a penalty try should have been awarded and I can see no good reason why Young's quick penalty was not allowed he must have been on or close to the mark.
There were decisions made during the game that I thought the ref got wrong there usually are, having later watched the match on TV I find that Mr Foley was not as wrong as often as I thought he was as is usually the case with any referee.
I do agree that except in the case of foul play the TMO should not intervene unless requested to do so by the person with the whistle.

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by Tigerbeat » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:30 pm

An interview with Wayne Barnes at the weekend highlighted how well they all got on as a group and said that not all were employed by the RFU and huge commitments were being made. Paul Dix has been involved in over 400 matches during his time as an official. For some of them this is a job for the weekend on back of their day jobs.
All the officials, full time and others, have to attend training sessions and have to undergo fitness tests before and during the season.
The RFU dont have the money to have all Officials working full time and so rely on the others. Without their support, time and commitment we would not have the numbers.
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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by ay2oh » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:39 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:25 pm
The point about a Referee Review Panel is that a referee's performance will be judged and assessed by people qualified to do so. Some questioning the performance of Foley, Tempest, CMK and others have never played the game or like me played it long ago and are not familiar with modern interpretations of the laws and are frankly annoyed by some of them but following a higher authorities instruction is not the fault of officials on the day.
We lost to Wasps because on the day we did not play well enough to win. Reffell got a yellow card because he tackled a man not in possession of the ball, had the ball been passed it would have been an outstanding try saving tackle, as it was a yellow card was fair enough, penalty try??? I personally don't think there was evidence to say a try would probably have been scored but I can see where the ref was coming from. The cancellation of JVP's try I thought was harsh as I don't think Steward's running line impacted on the score but again I see where the officials thought it might. The two scrum penalties on the line showed that the decision to go for the scrum was a good one and in my opinion a penalty try should have been awarded and I can see no good reason why Young's quick penalty was not allowed he must have been on or close to the mark.
There were decisions made during the game that I thought the ref got wrong there usually are, having later watched the match on TV I find that Mr Foley was not as wrong as often as I thought he was as is usually the case with any referee.
I do agree that except in the case of foul play the TMO should not intervene unless requested to do so by the person with the whistle.
You don’t need to be a qualified referee or even to have played the game to know that some decisions are blatantly wrong.
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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by northerntiger » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:26 pm

Most of the decisions being discussed here are matters of opinion - the penalty tries, Genge etc. You can make a case either way, depending on your opinion.
The one that really irritated me, though it didn’t actually affect the game, was the TMO intervening to give a deliberate knock on against Potter right at the end of the first half. The replay clearly showed that it was knocked on by wasps player, onto Potter’s hand. If we could see it, it was inexcusable that the TMO got it wrong

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Re: Premiership rugby referees review panel

Post by BengalTiger » Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:22 am

We should all start from the premise that the refs are all doing their level best and they have no bias, we might not agree on their view on certain incidents but it is a view and the only one that really counts.

The game is dynamic and some refs handle a pressure situation well others get caught up in the situation and do not behave as well as they could, (Foley moving to the other side of the last scrum on Sat was an example of this, he removed himself from having to make that critical call, so took the pressure off himself), he is still a top ref, people want perfection but some of us remember refs called Lander and Lacy so are a bit more forgiving!

It is the TMO that really annoys me, I think the rules of engagement should change so that the TMO only comments to the ref on foul play that the ref has missed or not seen clearly, or if the ref requests a the opinion of the TMO regarding grounding etc.

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