Idea on penalties and sanctions

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Scott1
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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by Scott1 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:46 am

“ In other games with other teams I’ve seen refs/TMOs still give yellows!”

That was the point I made earlier. And it rarely happens,you hardly ever see refs/TMO go back and give the deserved yellow. They just seem to take the try as punishment and play on.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by WhitecapTiger » Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:52 am

Scott1 wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:46 am
“ In other games with other teams I’ve seen refs/TMOs still give yellows!”

That was the point I made earlier. And it rarely happens,you hardly ever see refs/TMO go back and give the deserved yellow. They just seem to take the try as punishment and play on.
Yet if they did so for deserved yellow card offences there may be more players facing a Wiese (and Ross) type situation of accumulated cards equalling bans. Inconsistent really.
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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by Scott1 » Wed Jan 05, 2022 12:32 pm

WhitecapTiger wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:52 am
Scott1 wrote:
Wed Jan 05, 2022 11:46 am
“ In other games with other teams I’ve seen refs/TMOs still give yellows!”

That was the point I made earlier. And it rarely happens,you hardly ever see refs/TMO go back and give the deserved yellow. They just seem to take the try as punishment and play on.
Yet if they did so for deserved yellow card offences there may be more players facing a Wiese (and Ross) type situation of accumulated cards equalling bans. Inconsistent really.
Maybe it goes back to the OP original point then and look at say giving a YC for 3 consecutive penalties in the red zone perhaps?

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by ourla » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:31 pm

chris111 wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:50 pm
old one eye wrote:
Tue Jan 04, 2022 4:21 pm
I know where you are coming from, but I think this would just make more complications in an already complicated sport, the number of times I have heard people say, oh I don’t watch rugby, I don’t understand it.
Agree entirely - rugby is complicated enough as it is. It’s dangerous to become fixated on ‘consistency’ and so try to take referees’ interpretation out of the equation with formulaic approaches. This doesn’t help make the game ‘fairer’ - quite the opposite, in fact, as it takes away the power of officials to make nuanced judgements ‘in the moment’.
I take the point/argument. But I am not sure this is about nuance or judgement on the referee's part. They can't possibly keep count of the number of penalties an individual player has or how many a team has accumulated. Or to remember last week after 8 team penalties I binned a guy and now this week I need to do the same.

I am not 100% it should be introduced but something worth World Rugby looking at I would have thought - especially for games where there is a TMO who can easily keep track and communicate to the referee.
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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by tigerburnie » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:54 pm

I'd like to get rid of the tmo, the ref link and have the touch judges doing just that, television slow motion replays would be banned as well, you know like rugby used to be before we got players diving on the floor pretending to be injured, then jumping up and miraculously recovering and kicking a penalty just after making out they nearly had a broken leg........or something very close to it.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:45 pm

tigerburnie wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:54 pm
I'd like to get rid of the tmo, the ref link and have the touch judges doing just that, television slow motion replays would be banned as well, you know like rugby used to be before we got players diving on the floor pretending to be injured, then jumping up and miraculously recovering and kicking a penalty just after making out they nearly had a broken leg........or something very close to it.
Whilst many of us look back at how the officiating team have changed over the years, we have to acknowledge that the game has also changed at the same time. Players have become bigger, faster and fully professional. Laws have been changed in the name of entertainment and player safety so timing issues in many situations have become penalty offences and cards have become more common.
Unfortunately some referees still treat their assistants like touch judges and decide to play on when advised of possible offences.

To address many of the modern problems would require a return to old style rugby. To this point I would suggest the following:

1: Tackle - defined as as soon as the tackled player touches the ground with any part of their body other than the soles of their feet they must immediately release the ball. This would remove the "choke" tackle and encourage a return to the old adage "he can't run if he can't move his legs".
2: Breakdown - there would then be no need to Jackal and all arriving players must remain on their feet whilst rucking the ball,
which could not be picked up until it was clearly behind the back foot of the ruck
3: Scrum - Ensure a return to the ball being put into the centre of the tunnel and insisting that BOTH hookers must strike for the ball and the scrum must remain stationary until such time as the ball is hooked.
4: Maul - in the case that the ball becomes unplayable after it has travelled more than 10metres forward and it has been stopped legally then the side going forward gets the put in to the resultant scrum.
5: Treatment - any player receiving a head knock is required to leave the field immediately for an HIA even if they do not appear concussed.
6: Simulation - make this a red card offence that citing officers are fully aware of, this would make players think twice as to whether it is worth risking a 3 match ban for.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by mol2 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:35 pm

I would be tempted to say the maximum a maul can travel is 10m. Reduce the number of penalties that are milked

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by tigerburnie » Fri Jan 07, 2022 2:44 pm

If player safety really is important ban lifting in the lineout and then it can safely be a competition for the ball again rather than just a way of restarting the game.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by DingDong » Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:47 pm

GETHIN EXILE wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:45 pm
Some good ideas there Gethin Exile but also some misguided IMO -

Unfortunately some referees still treat their assistants like touch judges and decide to play on when advised of possible offences.
Law 6.5.a: The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. Refs do confer with AR's and TMO's and then make their decisions, you can't have refereeing by committee in such a dynamic game. AR's can equally be wrong, they're human.
However, stricter reffing at the scrum would help stop so many resets, scums drop NOT because they are being driven straight and parallel!! Also reffing the channel in the line out ie no players should be in it would make for a cleaner catch, the laws exist so just enforce them!

1: Tackle - defined as as soon as the tackled player touches the ground with any part of their body other than the soles of their feet they must immediately release the ball. This would remove the "choke" tackle and encourage a return to the old adage "he can't run if he can't move his legs".
Can't see how this removes the choke tackle because by lawe when a tackle is complete the first priority is for the tacklers to release the tackled player so the tackled player can present/release the ball, that's how it's reffed. What isn't reffed are players (defenders AND attackers) not rolling away making the ball more easily available.

2: Breakdown - there would then be no need to Jackal and all arriving players must remain on their feet whilst rucking the ball, which could not be picked up until it was clearly behind the back foot of the ruck
You can only jackal before a ruck is formed anyway, and can be rucked off in the process so not sure your point.

3: Scrum - Ensure a return to the ball being put into the centre of the tunnel and insisting that BOTH hookers must strike for the ball and the scrum must remain stationary until such time as the ball is hooked.
Down the centre and both hooking is a great idea, would help bring back the pushing contest at the scrum.

4: Maul - in the case that the ball becomes unplayable after it has travelled more than 10metres forward and it has been stopped legally then the side going forward gets the put in to the resultant scrum.
Great idea and fair, provided refs penalise both sides for dropping the maul not just the defenders.

5: Treatment - any player receiving a head knock is required to leave the field immediately for an HIA even if they do not appear concussed.
Disagree with this as its a collision sport where head injuries occur which are more often superficial. World Rugby may be reducing the number of subs in the near future which also makes this less appealing. Automatically suspending a player for one month if they're knocked out is a better option for me regardless whether they have been concussed.

6: Simulation - make this a red card offence that citing officers are fully aware of, this would make players think twice as to whether it is worth risking a 3 match ban for.
Proving simulation would be the issue, also not so sure that it's an issue at all, can't say i've seen any in recent times.

Also hate to see the game more sanitised with the original suggestion by Ourla to simply YC for a fixed amount of penalties. They are carded at the moment if there's a pattern in quick succession context, much fairer that timing and positioning of each penalty is used by a ref to decide whether they give a final warning or go to their pocket. Be harsh and a bit dull to card a player in their own half after 15 minutes of no penalties for a soft penalty offence.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by Cardiff Tig » Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:10 pm

Rugby, IMO, needs to become more professional in its refereeing. There should be the least amount of variation as possible from different refs week to week.

If an AR calls a penalty then the ref should blow up and accept it. It's ridiculous that a professional sport is dictated by how the ref trusts/uses his ARs. If the ref sees a potential penalty then it should be a penalty, not just letting the game flow. I don't buy the argument that it would be stop-start all the time, teams would soon stop giving away penalties if they were 6 or 9 points down after 5 minutes. It's funny how every team on the planet is able to defend a 3 point in the last 5 mins without giving penalties away at the breakdown but yet people think the ref needs to let the game flow more and not penalise teams at the start of a match.

They'll always be some level of judgement e.g., did the defender or attacker get to the ruck first, but the sport will always struggle if the rules are taken as guidance rather than formally applied.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:23 pm

DingDong wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:47 pm
GETHIN EXILE wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 1:45 pm
Some good ideas there Gethin Exile but also some misguided IMO -

Unfortunately some referees still treat their assistants like touch judges and decide to play on when advised of possible offences.
Law 6.5.a: The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match. Refs do confer with AR's and TMO's and then make their decisions, you can't have refereeing by committee in such a dynamic game. AR's can equally be wrong, they're human.
However, stricter reffing at the scrum would help stop so many resets, scums drop NOT because they are being driven straight and parallel!! Also reffing the channel in the line out ie no players should be in it would make for a cleaner catch, the laws exist so just enforce them!

1: Tackle - defined as as soon as the tackled player touches the ground with any part of their body other than the soles of their feet they must immediately release the ball. This would remove the "choke" tackle and encourage a return to the old adage "he can't run if he can't move his legs".
Can't see how this removes the choke tackle because by lawe when a tackle is complete the first priority is for the tacklers to release the tackled player so the tackled player can present/release the ball, that's how it's reffed. What isn't reffed are players (defenders AND attackers) not rolling away making the ball more easily available.
- Choke tackle wouldn't be a tackle because for a tackle to occur some part of the ball carrier other than their feet would have to touch the ground. Making the player release the ball as soon as they are tackled rather than allowing them to place the ball would speed up the game. Tackle complete should be once the ball is released rather than having to release the ball carrier before the ball is released

2: Breakdown - there would then be no need to Jackal and all arriving players must remain on their feet whilst rucking the ball, which could not be picked up until it was clearly behind the back foot of the ruck
You can only jackal before a ruck is formed anyway, and can be rucked off in the process so not sure your point.
- You can currently be driven off the ball while trying to jackal but more often than not this leads to the ball carriers support player ending up off their feet but not being penalised for it. The laws state that a ruck is formed by one or more players from both teams being on their feet over the ball most "rucks " currently have players off their feet at them.

3: Scrum - Ensure a return to the ball being put into the centre of the tunnel and insisting that BOTH hookers must strike for the ball and the scrum must remain stationary until such time as the ball is hooked.
Down the centre and both hooking is a great idea, would help bring back the pushing contest at the scrum.

4: Maul - in the case that the ball becomes unplayable after it has travelled more than 10metres forward and it has been stopped legally then the side going forward gets the put in to the resultant scrum.
Great idea and fair, provided refs penalise both sides for dropping the maul not just the defenders. Emphasis is on stopped legally.

5: Treatment - any player receiving a head knock is required to leave the field immediately for an HIA even if they do not appear concussed.
Disagree with this as its a collision sport where head injuries occur which are more often superficial. World Rugby may be reducing the number of subs in the near future which also makes this less appealing. Automatically suspending a player for one month if they're knocked out is a better option for me regardless whether they have been concussed.
-A player who has been knocked out will have suffered some amount of concussion.

6: Simulation - make this a red card offence that citing officers are fully aware of, this would make players think twice as to whether it is worth risking a 3 match ban for.
Proving simulation would be the issue, also not so sure that it's an issue at all, can't say i've seen any in recent times.

Also hate to see the game more sanitised with the original suggestion by Ourla to simply YC for a fixed amount of penalties. They are carded at the moment if there's a pattern in quick succession context, much fairer that timing and positioning of each penalty is used by a ref to decide whether they give a final warning or go to their pocket. Be harsh and a bit dull to card a player in their own half after 15 minutes of no penalties for a soft penalty offence.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by ourla » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:28 pm

DingDong wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:47 pm
They are carded at the moment if there's a pattern in quick succession context, much fairer that timing and positioning of each penalty is used by a ref to decide whether they give a final warning or go to their pocket.
The problem is that the referee has a multitude of matters to deal with. Trying to keep track of how many penalties a player/team has committed without further sanctions is just another. And therefore becomes arbitrary.
DingDong wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:47 pm
Be harsh and a bit dull to card a player in their own half after 15 minutes of no penalties for a soft penalty offence.
I don't see the relevance of position on the field or if one of the penalties was less clear or obvious than another. It's a sanction as a result of cumulative penalties. Just like Weise got a ban for x number of yellows in a certain time frame.
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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:46 pm

ourla wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:28 pm
DingDong wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:47 pm
They are carded at the moment if there's a pattern in quick succession context, much fairer that timing and positioning of each penalty is used by a ref to decide whether they give a final warning or go to their pocket.
The problem is that the referee has a multitude of matters to deal with. Trying to keep track of how many penalties a player/team has committed without further sanctions is just another. And therefore becomes arbitrary.
DingDong wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 3:47 pm
Be harsh and a bit dull to card a player in their own half after 15 minutes of no penalties for a soft penalty offence.
I don't see the relevance of position on the field or if one of the penalties was less clear or obvious than another. It's a sanction as a result of cumulative penalties. Just like Weise got a ban for x number of yellows in a certain time frame.
In basketball there's literally a foul counter by the scoreboard, the ref doesn't need to track it themselves.
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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by mol2 » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:52 pm

Start with getting rid of the forward pass.

One thing has come out of VAR in soccer is that it is dead simple to have the software show a virtual line. They use it for offside.

If in doubt for a forward pass in a try. Just check, no repeated deciding if it was forward/momentum or which way the hands were pointing. If the receiver takes the ball ahead of the line where the ball was when passed it’s forwards. Likewise for kicks. Put the virtual line on, no doubt or interpretation.

Penalty advantage in 22 - 3 (or other agreed number) phases and the ref calls advantage ending and the skipper has to say “take” or play continues. Outside the 22 10 or metres and advantage is over or 3 phases as above.

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Re: Idea on penalties and sanctions

Post by ourla » Fri Jan 07, 2022 7:55 pm

Barnes just carded Curry because of "4 straight penalties" - where is that in the laws?
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