New Salary Cap Breach?

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Offside
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Offside » Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:52 am

TigerMac3 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:01 am
Offside wrote:
Sun Jan 02, 2022 5:51 pm
Salary cap discussed by Dayglo and Ugo on Rugby Tonight. More balanced that I was expecting but:
1. Compared to Sarries big breach rather than smaller breaches by Quins and another.
2. Said no other clubs had missed out as Tigers had not won anything, but Falcons were relegated instead of Tigers in a year that could be involved. Poor knowledge/appreciation by them.
3. Read out a PRL statement that suggested any penalty would be based on those on force at the time of the breach.
Re: point 3… seems to be conflicted reports surrounding this. Have seen it quoted that we’ll be penalised based on the ‘post Sarries’ sanctions rather than the pre. The hope for a significant fine seems to be dwindling by the day.
BT Sport displayed and directly quoted a statement from PRL rather than speculation so I thought it was worth posting. Many reports are guessing.
HMRC started an investigation into image rights in rugby in March as it reduced tax and NI payments. It could be that some payments that had not been declared by club or player were identified. There are some example player contracts available online which require both club and player to report earnings to avoid stuff not being reported. Actual contracts will have adjustments/modifications so they only act as an illustration.

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:10 am

If we are guilty, I would hope we would:
a) Genuinely apologetic
b) Have transparency over the "books"
c) Anyone still at the club who was knowingly involved in deliberate actions to avoid the cap, their position within Tigers must be independently reviewed, regardless of who they are.

This would seem the best course of action to avoid some of the flak that Saracens got.

If we aren't guilty then I think an investigation into the leak should be made.

As for any sanctions/penalties I have little faith in PRL getting it right, I would guess any attempt to apply new rules to past crimes wouldn't get far in law or possibly with the other clubs who almost certainly have their own skeletons in closets to be discovered.
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Old Hob » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:34 am

Agree with the above. We would need a very big humble pie. I also think laws cannot be applied retrospectively if justice is to be done - they cannot in 'conventional' courts.
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by sam16111986 » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:48 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:10 am

If we aren't guilty then I think an investigation into the leak should be made.
The leak to the press or the leak to enable the salary cap investigation?

The leak to the press, yes whomever did that was after a quick buck and if we choose to ensure that person does no more business with the club that's fine.

If there was a whistleblower to start the investigation it would be unethical to attempt to go after them in any way be it investigation or other. Reporting suspected breaches to the correct regulatory authority is the right thing to do.

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:56 am

The statement sets out that the procedure to be followed (eg enhanced investigatory powers) would be the current procedure, but that any penalties applied would be those in force at the time of the breach. I think that's where the confusion in some of the reporting comes from.

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by trendylfj » Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:23 am

If we want our sport to be squeaky clean regarding payments we have got more chances to meet Santa Claus. There will always be people/players/clubs who will take the limit of the regs as far as possible and exploit loopholes that will always exist. As for finding "the leaker", we do not even know if there is a leaker never mind if it is a disgruntled ex-player. It could simply be the result of HMRC's normal investigations which have then been forwarded to the relevant rugby authorities. No one here knows but the principle of whistleblowing should be maintained and not investigated to satisfy the interests of a few or many, If we have done wrong in the past then that needs to be cleared up and punishments accepted. We can argue about the level of punishment when that fact of innocent or guilt has been established and punishments awarded. The sad thing for me is that Tom's position may be in danger - he has put his heart, soul, and money into this club and I hope he has not been stitched up by previous employees by their advice as to what was legal or possible.
Hehehehehehehehe

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:50 am

trendylfj wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:23 am
If we want our sport to be squeaky clean regarding payments we have got more chances to meet Santa Claus. There will always be people/players/clubs who will take the limit of the regs as far as possible and exploit loopholes that will always exist. As for finding "the leaker", we do not even know if there is a leaker never mind if it is a disgruntled ex-player. It could simply be the result of HMRC's normal investigations which have then been forwarded to the relevant rugby authorities. No one here knows but the principle of whistleblowing should be maintained and not investigated to satisfy the interests of a few or many, If we have done wrong in the past then that needs to be cleared up and punishments accepted. We can argue about the level of punishment when that fact of innocent or guilt has been established and punishments awarded. The sad thing for me is that Tom's position may be in danger - he has put his heart, soul, and money into this club and I hope he has not been stitched up by previous employees by their advice as to what was legal or possible.
I agree with the whistleblower NOT being investigated (if there was one, we don't know this may have been self reported)

However investigations into salary cap breaches are meant to be confidential until a charge is laid. The fact it's in the papers at the moment before they have had a chance to investigate means that there is all sorts of external pressure that pretty much whatever is found there will be claims that it was not dealt with impartiality. That leak should be investigated no matter the result, but especially if we're found innocent.
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:51 am

sam16111986 wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:48 am
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:10 am

If we aren't guilty then I think an investigation into the leak should be made.
The leak to the press or the leak to enable the salary cap investigation?

The leak to the press, yes whomever did that was after a quick buck and if we choose to ensure that person does no more business with the club that's fine.

If there was a whistleblower to start the investigation it would be unethical to attempt to go after them in any way be it investigation or other. Reporting suspected breaches to the correct regulatory authority is the right thing to do.
Yes I did mean the press leak, we need whistleblowers in all forms of life to be protected...the issue here would be if it's the same "person" who whistle blew but also tipped off the 4th estate before PRL did anything.

Longterm PRL needs sorting out.
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:15 am

A cynical side of me wonders if the timing of the leak to the press was to coincide with the primary period of contract negotiations and renewals, I wonder if any star names we're looking at signing or renewing are now just hanging on waiting (possibly letting us add relegation escape clauses)
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by loretta » Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:25 am

TigerFeetSteve wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:15 am
A cynical side of me wonders if the timing of the leak to the press was to coincide with the primary period of contract negotiations and renewals, I wonder if any star names we're looking at signing or renewing are now just hanging on waiting (possibly letting us add relegation escape clauses)
I'd say it's far more likely to be a disgruntled ex employee/player who wasn't happy at the time they left, and is envious of our current success without them. There are a few candidates, but my guess would be someone no longer employed by a PRL club, and therefore untouched by the fall out should their identity be revealed.

Either way, it doesn't matter. It's easy to point the finger but, if we are guilty we have to take our lumps. It's a fair cop guv.
I've got a bad feeling about this.

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:43 pm

https://play.acast.com/s/theruck/why-ar ... vestigated

The guy from tge Times chatting about what the investigation is regarding.(only the first 18min)

Key points I took

1. Issue is 3rd party payments, so basically it seems there's 3 contracts, one - salary, two - image rights of some players with the club & three - image rights contracts with WIM.

2. The investigation is about firstly a) if the club or a club representative facilitated this contract with WIM, players are entitled to get their own contracts for their image rights and it is nothing to do with the cap, but if the club had hand in setting it up it needed declaring. b) if the club were involved was that declared on the cap information, as it hasn't yet been confirmed that these payments were not declared.

3. Not officially but all the inside info these reporters seem to have seem to suggest what's being looked at is not on the same scale as Sarries.


Dunno if others have listened but those were the main points I picked up on.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by voice of the crumbie » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:18 am

TigerFeetSteve wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:43 pm
https://play.acast.com/s/theruck/why-ar ... vestigated

The guy from tge Times chatting about what the investigation is regarding.(only the first 18min)

Key points I took

1. Issue is 3rd party payments, so basically it seems there's 3 contracts, one - salary, two - image rights of some players with the club & three - image rights contracts with WIM.

2. The investigation is about firstly a) if the club or a club representative facilitated this contract with WIM, players are entitled to get their own contracts for their image rights and it is nothing to do with the cap, but if the club had hand in setting it up it needed declaring. b) if the club were involved was that declared on the cap information, as it hasn't yet been confirmed that these payments were not declared.

3. Not officially but all the inside info these reporters seem to have seem to suggest what's being looked at is not on the same scale as Sarries.


Dunno if others have listened but those were the main points I picked up on.
Thanks TFS. I don't have the time to listen right now but will certainly do so later.
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by mol2 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:17 pm

Salary cap breaches and Inland Review investigations are separate in some ways.

A club may have declared a payment for image use as salary for cap purposes yet paid that to a third party company. Tax benefits for player and reduce NI for the club but the Inland Revenue are getting firmer on this loophole as they may decide this should have gone through PAYE.

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by westwinds31 » Tue Jan 04, 2022 5:44 pm

trendylfj wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:23 am
If we want our sport to be squeaky clean regarding payments we have got more chances to meet Santa Claus. There will always be people/players/clubs who will take the limit of the regs as far as possible and exploit loopholes that will always exist. As for finding "the leaker", we do not even know if there is a leaker never mind if it is a disgruntled ex-player. It could simply be the result of HMRC's normal investigations which have then been forwarded to the relevant rugby authorities. No one here knows but the principle of whistleblowing should be maintained and not investigated to satisfy the interests of a few or many, If we have done wrong in the past then that needs to be cleared up and punishments accepted. We can argue about the level of punishment when that fact of innocent or guilt has been established and punishments awarded. The sad thing for me is that Tom's position may be in danger - he has put his heart, soul, and money into this club and I hope he has not been stitched up by previous employees by their advice as to what was legal or possible.
Your point on being not being able to meet Santa is a worry.

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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:22 pm

As has been pointed out on Twitter we are currently advertising for a "management account"

As they say it's all about timing...

https://www.leicestertigers.com/club/va ... Accountant
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

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