New Salary Cap Breach?

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Rugbygramps
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

Tiglon wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:11 pm Here is a list of known salary cap breaches so far, in order of % over the cap:

2016/17 Saracens £1,134,969 (19%)
2018/19 Saracens £906,505 (14.2%)
2016/17 Tigers £147,750 (2.5%)
2017/18 Saracens £140,250 (2.2%)
2019/20 Tigers £98,586 (1.5%)
2017/18 Tigers £89,718 (1.4%)
2018/19 Tigers £55,887 (0.9%)
2016/17 Wasps £40,528 (0.7%)
2017/18 Quins £12,479 (0.2%)

Have I missed any?

I believe only Tigers and Saracens have been fined for failure to disclose, i.e. actively trying to deceive the Salary Cap Manager (although both clubs would argue that they thought they didn't have to disclose the payments in question).

Not great company to be in and, for all the the attention on Nigel Wray, it's surprising not to see our chairman now being criticised.
Very fair point, difference between an owner and a chairman, and the size of the indiscretions maybe.
From my point of view nothing to be gained from raking over the past. We are a very different club now to back then, and unless I’m very mistaken, apologies if I am, we’re not hearing much from Peter Tom now everything is back to normal.
chappie
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by chappie »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:06 pm
chappie wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:59 pm Surly Peter Tom must take a bit of the blame as he’s the Chairman and he knows full well what is happening within the club.
Our current CEO must also take some responsibility as she has been in office during some of the dates mentioned in the report, what did she used to say I want to be transparent as does the club!!
Now would be a good time to have a LTTV special so they can be asked questions and address the fans with the full facts??
Honestly not sure what would be gained by that. Pay up and move on making sure it doesn’t happen again
Share holders have a right to know, for me the club statement is just whitewash, this should not be happening end of.
Someone needs to take some responsibility to make sure this doesn’t happen again.
Franck Tournaire Number 1 fan.
markharbtiger
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by markharbtiger »

At worst this is 2.46% over the cap for a single year, where the threshold was 5.42%. The important thing is to ensure it doesn't happen again, and focus on the rugby.
Rugbygramps
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

chappie wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:26 pm
Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:06 pm
chappie wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:59 pm Surly Peter Tom must take a bit of the blame as he’s the Chairman and he knows full well what is happening within the club.
Our current CEO must also take some responsibility as she has been in office during some of the dates mentioned in the report, what did she used to say I want to be transparent as does the club!!
Now would be a good time to have a LTTV special so they can be asked questions and address the fans with the full facts??
Honestly not sure what would be gained by that. Pay up and move on making sure it doesn’t happen again
Share holders have a right to know, for me the club statement is just whitewash, this should not be happening end of.
Someone needs to take some responsibility to make sure this doesn’t happen again.
You obviously feel strongly which is fine. From what I’ve read it is all out in the open as to what has happened. You feel it is a whitewash so reading between the lines you feel heads should role. Who’s Peter Tom, Andrea Pinchen, both, and just what would be gained by this other than placing the club back in turmoil
Tiglon
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Tiglon »

Rugbygramps wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:21 pm
Tiglon wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:11 pm Here is a list of known salary cap breaches so far, in order of % over the cap:

2016/17 Saracens £1,134,969 (19%)
2018/19 Saracens £906,505 (14.2%)
2016/17 Tigers £147,750 (2.5%)
2017/18 Saracens £140,250 (2.2%)
2019/20 Tigers £98,586 (1.5%)
2017/18 Tigers £89,718 (1.4%)
2018/19 Tigers £55,887 (0.9%)
2016/17 Wasps £40,528 (0.7%)
2017/18 Quins £12,479 (0.2%)

Have I missed any?

I believe only Tigers and Saracens have been fined for failure to disclose, i.e. actively trying to deceive the Salary Cap Manager (although both clubs would argue that they thought they didn't have to disclose the payments in question).

Not great company to be in and, for all the the attention on Nigel Wray, it's surprising not to see our chairman now being criticised.
Very fair point, difference between an owner and a chairman, and the size of the indiscretions maybe.
From my point of view nothing to be gained from raking over the past. We are a very different club now to back then, and unless I’m very mistaken, apologies if I am, we’re not hearing much from Peter Tom now everything is back to normal.
Completely agree with your point about size of indiscretion. However, failure to disclose payments for 5 years running indicates a lack of integrity within the organisation and the same person is still at the top, whether he is owner & chairman or just chairman. I don't remember many on here having the "let's move on" sentiment during or after the Saracens scandal and, personally, as a Tigers fan, I would prefer to make sure that in respect of honesty we really are a different club now, compared to the olden days of way back 9 months ago.

I want to be proud to be a Tigers fan, and largely I am, but there's that 5% nagging feeling that maybe I shouldn't be quite so proud. The fact that the club has fully cooperated (unlike Saracens) and has accepted the findings (unlike Saracens) is a very good sign, but I do feel the club needs to do something to reassure that we will be better in future.

The way Murphy was treated at the end was disappointing (he had to go, but there's a right way and a wrong way of moving someone on) and still doesn't sit right with me. Overall I don't feel completely confident that the club wants to do things the right way some of the time. I'm not calling for pitchforks outside Peter Tom's office or demanding any resignations, but it would be nice to feel just a bit more confident that the club is committed to doing things the right way in future.
Tigersunited
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Tigersunited »

chappie wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:59 pm Surly Peter Tom must take a bit of the blame as he’s the Chairman and he knows full well what is happening within the club.
Our current CEO must also take some responsibility as she has been in office during some of the dates mentioned in the report, what did she used to say I want to be transparent as does the club!!
Now would be a good time to have a LTTV special so they can be asked questions and address the fans with the full facts??
All has the look of the previous CEO to me. If he could deceive PRL I imagine he could do the same with the board. As for the current CEO - since she started, she has dealt with the pandemic and seemingly closed down the image rights scheme, which must have been complicated- I suspect she deserves our gratitude.
Notinthecounty
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Notinthecounty »

I think you will find our current CEO was not in the position for any of the breaches found and the fine for the 20/21 season relates to not reporting previous breaches.

Let’s not start a witch hunt to make you feel better. It’s clear the club has approached this in the right way and I believe they will take the right decisions , if needed , to ensure this does not happen again.

Our board members all have commercial responsibilities away from Tigers and I trust them to take the right decisions in light of those.
Rugbygramps
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Rugbygramps »

Don’t want to keep quoting text but you make some excellent points Tiglon. I may be being very naive, but I would hope that by the club continuing to act openly to and to the highest standards, moving forward, those 5% nagging doubts will be sated.
LongsladeTiger
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by LongsladeTiger »

A very sad and embarrassing day for the club and loyal genuine rugby supporters. Be in no doubt we knew what we were doing .You don't make errors for 5 years in a row by accident. Chappie makes a valid point about two senior people in our club who have been very vocal in recent times about being open and transparent. People in Glass Houses comes to mind . We have been lucky but its time to move on. The club has to make efforts to be trusted and respected again by its supporters and the wider rugby world. Borthwick is doing his bit by rebuilding the side on the pitch ,others must follow suit.
markharbtiger
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by markharbtiger »

I don't think we should be making accusations or speculating who is/was to blame in public. It has not changed my view of the club. Let's get back to the rugby.
trendylfj
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by trendylfj »

chappie wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:59 pm Surly Peter Tom must take a bit of the blame as he’s the Chairman and he knows full well what is happening within the club.
Our current CEO must also take some responsibility as she has been in office during some of the dates mentioned in the report, what did she used to say I want to be transparent as does the club!!
Now would be a good time to have a LTTV special so they can be asked questions and address the fans with the full facts??
Can see the interest in an LTTV with Peter but as far as I can find out Andrea was appointed in May 2020 at the end of the season and it seems hardly fair to imply any criticism regarding the 2019/2020 season to her. I would imagine these arrangements were in place before she took over and therefore had no control over them. If I am wrong on the date of the appointment then please come back to me. What her role was as the chief operating officer was in 2019, I do not know but can't imagine she was involved in image rights or salaries.

"She was instrumental and growing the securing key sponsors and, two years later, was appointed to the board as commercial director. Another elevation to chief operating officer arrived in August 2019 before the top job came beckoning in May 2020 – replacing Simon Cohen, who had been CEO for eight years."
Hehehehehehehehe
Tiglon
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Tiglon »

trendylfj wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:01 pm
chappie wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 3:59 pm Surly Peter Tom must take a bit of the blame as he’s the Chairman and he knows full well what is happening within the club.
Our current CEO must also take some responsibility as she has been in office during some of the dates mentioned in the report, what did she used to say I want to be transparent as does the club!!
Now would be a good time to have a LTTV special so they can be asked questions and address the fans with the full facts??
Can see the interest in an LTTV with Peter but as far as I can find out Andrea was appointed in May 2020 at the end of the season and it seems hardly fair to imply any criticism regarding the 2019/2020 season to her. I would imagine these arrangements were in place before she took over and therefore had no control over them. If I am wrong on the date of the appointment then please come back to me. What her role was as the chief operating officer was in 2019, I do not know but can't imagine she was involved in image rights or salaries.

"She was instrumental and growing the securing key sponsors and, two years later, was appointed to the board as commercial director. Another elevation to chief operating officer arrived in August 2019 before the top job came beckoning in May 2020 – replacing Simon Cohen, who had been CEO for eight years."
I'm not seeking to point the finger at anyone here, I have no idea who was involved in what, but we were also guilty of failing to report payments for the season 20/21 (Salary Cap annual audit to be reported, by each club, to Prem Rugby by December 2021 - that's only 3 months ago). This isn't a problem that stopped when Cohen departed.
Last edited by Tiglon on Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nofrontteeth
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Nofrontteeth »

Re Chappie's point
I'm ignorant on club management and 'regulated duties' but if there is derogation of duty in a PLC of any sort that may effect shareholders, as many of us are where does the former CEO'S suing of the club stand? How about seeking redress for tort of negligence?

Yes, club finance rules and employer contracts are different topics but all part of a holistic management package.

Chief and Executive are the name on the tin, followed by internal club Finance Officer and Internal Audit?

Over to you finance/ business types - I only used to work for my money.

COYT ONWARD AND UPWARDS !!!
GETHIN EXILE
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by GETHIN EXILE »

We got caught trying to find ways of attracting players and I would think most clubs were doing similar. We have been given our punishment and need to move on. By cooperating fully with the investigation we have shown that we have changed.

This has been an off field distraction that thankfully has not affected the performance on the field.
BigDan50
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by BigDan50 »

If you cheat a little or cheat a lot it’s still cheating, we are now in the same category as Saracens, Quins and Wasps, very sad that our club has resorted to this kind of behaviour, the amount of abuse Saracens have received from some posters on here hopefully will now stop, all the clubs mentioned have rightly been penalised and paid their dues. Let’s move on.
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