New Salary Cap Breach?

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markharbtiger
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by markharbtiger »

Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:26 pm At this moment in time all we know is that an investigation is taking place and it is Tigers that have confirmed it. Innocent until proven guilty….Tigers being. Plc, unlike other clubs, will have its accounts scrutinised and open to all shareholders. Insinuating people to have been involved in wrong doing when nothing has been proven is not advisable at this time. I am sure that it will all become alot clearer in time. Tigers did not have to make it known.
If there have been wrongdoings, then the appropriate penalty must be applied.
Lets hope it is completed soon and does not drag out.
Well said TigerBeat. Perhaps those mentioning names could/should edit their posts.
Tiglon
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Tiglon »

dunks43 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:37 pm
jgriffin wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:45 am Worldwide Image Management, incorporated 1999, insolvent Feb 2021. Based in Derby, run by John Jeffs, J Paige. Also known as Greatdray Ltd.
If third party payments made, when and who authorised important. Big fine.
Justin Paige is also director of.....

Croft Original Ltd
Ollie Smith Ltd
Geordan Murphy Ltd

All of course Image rights companies with previous players as directors
I think it's normal that guys like this run image rights companies for a lot of teammates, and I would guess that the majority of pro sportspeople have image rights companies, particularly those with higher profiles like those above. It's a common tax avoidance method.

HMRC have ongoing battles about it with football players. That's separate from the salary cap though, which states image rights paid to a player are part of the cap. Of course if you don't pay them to a player, but to a company instead, it all gets complicated. The issue with Itoje which lead to the biggest part of the Sarries scandal was that Prem Rugby said Itoje's company was massively overpaid for his image rights, so 50% of them were then classed as salary which put Sarries way over the cap. It was argued and accepted that rather than paying a company for Itoje's image rights, they were actually paying some of his salary to the image rights company - this was supported by the fact that Itoje was not even one of the top 10 highest earning 2nd rows in the Premiership. Crucially, they weren't saying image rights payments to companies were part of the cap, just that you could not disguise salary in this way and claim it was not salary.

As soon as one player has it done for them, agents are going to suggest it to other clubs for other players, so it's hardly surprising if Itoje and Sarries were not the only example of this.

The only way I can see it being a problem for Tigers is if it is considered that the club overpaid players' companies for image rights to the extent that some should be considered salary. Prem Rugby had an independent valuation done for Itoje's image rights which came back as £800k for the 30% of his rights that Sarries bought, which values his entire image rights as over £2.6m (Sarries paid £1.6m for 30%).

If this is what the current investigation is about then I doubt it will be over quickly unless it's a very obvious and indefensible overpayment for player(s) image rights. It's all about the details, but worth reiterating that payments to third party companies for players' image rights are commonplace and not necessarily a breach of the cap.

Isn't Croft Original a sherry?! :smt005
markharbtiger
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by markharbtiger »

Thanks Tiglon - your post was very informative.
Scott1
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Scott1 »

markharbtiger wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:04 pm Thanks Tiglon - your post was very informative.
+1
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chappie
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by chappie »

Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:26 pm At this moment in time all we know is that an investigation is taking place and it is Tigers that have confirmed it. Innocent until proven guilty….Tigers being. Plc, unlike other clubs, will have its accounts scrutinised and open to all shareholders. Insinuating people to have been involved in wrong doing when nothing has been proven is not advisable at this time. I am sure that it will all become alot clearer in time. Tigers did not have to make it known.
If there have been wrongdoings, then the appropriate penalty must be applied.
Lets hope it is completed soon and does not drag out.
This is interesting, you mention above : Tigers did not have to make this know!!
In the early transition of the club when LTTV were doing their weekly specials our new and current CEO said on more than one occasion ‘ That we want to be transparent’ well there you have it, no smoke without fire, any breech is just pure cheating which ever way you look at it, a sad day.
I would dearly love to know what my old friend BILL W would make of this? :smt009
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TigerFeetSteve
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

markharbtiger wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:34 pm
TigerFeetSteve wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:24 pm Worth noting that the current sanctions for an over £200k breach is 50 points sanction, that would leave us 9 points behind Bath so on current form we wouldn't end bottom
Are you sure? The numbers quoted here https://twitter.com/crootmatt/status/14 ... 21769?s=21 suggest you are a long way off.
I was quoting from here

https://twitter.com/glenda06731380/stat ... vX9Ng&s=19

Though your one seems more comprehensive
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.
RagingBull
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by RagingBull »

Yeh Paige being involved in other players companies shouldn’t matter he wasn’t an employee of tigers or anything.

The thing will be what the companies relationship is with tigers not the players
Tigers86asw
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Tigers86asw »

ay2oh wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:09 pm
Tigers86asw wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 4:57 pm If found guilty we must deal with the consequences. It will shake my faith in the club to its core.
Even if the people responsible are no longer here ?
Peter Tom is still here…
LE18
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by LE18 »

Big Dai wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:47 pm Conspiracy theory number 142.......yes, the mind has raced on that far......is this all linked to the departure of Genge and Ford?

Hmmmmmmm🤔
Very interesting theory.
RagingBull
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by RagingBull »

I guess a question would be why would it be linked to Genge and ford going?
fentiger
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by fentiger »

RagingBull wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:36 pm I guess a question would be why would it be linked to Genge and ford going?
Especially as it has been stated we matched their salary demands? :smt017
kk20gb30
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by kk20gb30 »

Until something concrete is known, simply do not want to comment. Rather than speculate, I simply am going to wait, worry and hope for the best....
Seemingly heading rapidly toward senility .....Not long or far to go now , in fact, getting worse daily.....
Big Dai
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Big Dai »

LE18 wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:21 pm
Big Dai wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 1:47 pm Conspiracy theory number 142.......yes, the mind has raced on that far......is this all linked to the departure of Genge and Ford?

Hmmmmmmm🤔
Very interesting theory.
........nah......just the brain running off with itself.

Like someone else said. Let speculation cease. I'll just wait and worry with the rest. Waiting is not a strong point. Worrying however..............
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Ashurstwoodtiger
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by Ashurstwoodtiger »

Regarding Sarries breach found this on line wonder if we are looking at the same historic period if as reported it was before Andrea and Steve joined us and salary investigation can only go back 5 years I think.


Rogers found that they exceeded the salary cap by in excess of £2million across the 2016-17, 2017-18 and 2018-19 seasons through the use of contributions to property co-investments with players, image rights deals and hospitality payments.
westwinds31
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Re: New Salary Cap Breach?

Post by westwinds31 »

chappie wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 6:16 pm
Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Dec 28, 2021 5:26 pm At this moment in time all we know is that an investigation is taking place and it is Tigers that have confirmed it. Innocent until proven guilty….Tigers being. Plc, unlike other clubs, will have its accounts scrutinised and open to all shareholders. Insinuating people to have been involved in wrong doing when nothing has been proven is not advisable at this time. I am sure that it will all become alot clearer in time. Tigers did not have to make it known.
If there have been wrongdoings, then the appropriate penalty must be applied.
Lets hope it is completed soon and does not drag out.
This is interesting, you mention above : Tigers did not have to make this know!!
In the early transition of the club when LTTV were doing their weekly specials our new and current CEO said on more than one occasion ‘ That we want to be transparent’ well there you have it, no smoke without fire, any breech is just pure cheating which ever way you look at it, a sad day.
I would dearly love to know what my old friend BILL W would make of this? :smt009
Bill would have posted his normal “keep the faith” I’m sure. :smt027
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