Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

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westwinds31
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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by westwinds31 » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:10 pm

kk20gb30 wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:31 am
An enthralling , compelling and engrossing game - made all the more so by the fact that neither side were at their best.With points at stake it is always (for me) about getting there and not how you get there.The result is what matters above all, and it was a fine result.
Different eyes however see different things - or perhaps see the same thing , just interpret them differently.For those arguing that the kicking to Green was a deliberate ploy and was effective in execution I would counter by saying that it was effective approx 50% of the time (first half especially) when the kick allowed time enough to pressurize the player.The player would have been more occupied either being forced to collect from space and/or made to turn - too many times it was 'down the throat' and we were fortunate that 'quins were just as profligate in their response ...
For me the Yellow to Wiese was justifiable - you simply cannot tackle like that to that area of the body and expect to escape punishment.It was concerning that we were perhaps a little outsmarted at Scrum time by 'quins or was it that that the Ref called every 50-50 in their favour ? We are just too far from the action to see.
Harlequins though have improved massively in set defence so great credit must go to their coaching team in adding steel to flamboyance.Kudos to them.Credit to Leicester however for overcoming this twin threat.
In most other aspects I would concur that it was a great win and controlled performance.For me though with expectation comes disappointment so it is and always will be feet firmly on the ground.
Perfect summary of the game. Tracey on Facebook says Quins were scrummaging illegally...I have no clue but it looked Genge was under pressure to me on a few occasions. I thought our power game would overwhelm them but if anything Quins got stronger. We had 2 or 3 chances when close to the line but maul defence was superb from both sides. Wiese ? Maybe he’s a marked man now by the officials. All in all it was attritional but as Ford said afterwards “that could have gone either way that”.

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by nicmattyg » Mon Dec 06, 2021 11:25 pm

Firstly what a brilliant atmosphere in a sold out home game. My friend brought his girls to along to their first ever live game and they had a smiles on their faces from start to finish! Two teams at the top of the league going toe to toe. A few standout performers for me were (same as others) - Youngs, van staden, Kelly, steward, Ford, potter all very good. Cole and Nadolo had games to forget.

Thought Marler, collier, Chisholm, smith, Green were very good for Quins. How Marler can Put a shift in like that and dominate a scrum how he did in the 77th minute blows my brain as a fellow loose head (usually blowing from my behind by 50th minute!). Great engine and their front row definitely did a job on us at scrum time. I hope we work on that before we head to Bordeaux!

We seem to be making a habit of winning and whilst we were nowhere near our best, (we just looked a bit rusty to me, especially in attack) we still managed to get over the line once again showing passion and heart through the squad. Lovely stuff after the misery we’ve had for the past few seasons!

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by mightymouse » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:02 am

I think the week off after internationals may have left us a bit disjointed and the squad will hopefully improve being together for the next few weeks.
One player who I think rarely gets a mention and yet was outstanding again on Sunday was Wells. His tackle count must be immense and he makes crucial turnovers as well as an improved carrying game .. He is always at the centre of the driving mauls in addition to scrum and lineout work.
I agree Nadola did not have his best game but
I think the criticism of the scrum and Cole in particular was a little unfair.
The first few penalties, which were in front of me should clearly gone the other way. Their Tighthead either lost footing because his feet were too far back or he turned in and down. Each time Genge was penalised I assume because his elbow was pointing downwards. Most referees have no understanding of scrum dynamics have never been in one. A loosehead has very little impact pulling down on a shirt around the side/ belly area (he has to put his hand somewhere and he would have to be double jointed to get it in the back!) The tighthead in contrast can make huge impact with the elbow in a downward position because as it comes over the loose heads left shoulder and arm it can be used as a very powerful lever if allowed by the ref.
I do think Marler had an excellent game also but mainly in the loose and he negated Cole in the tight, but I think that side was a fairly even contest. Once Genge was allowed to drive he got the upper hand but the scrum just pivoted on a static other side.
When Heyes came on I thought he held Marler just about for the first couple but then came the big one! Marler did an absolute number on him in that one and That concerns me. Heyes at the level he is supposed to be at (considered by England) should not be getting a mauling like that by anyone! I wonder with him if it’s a concentration thing. Not every scrum is a full out contest sometimes props especially in the middle of the game coast in the scrum ( especially if they’re equally matched) but you have to be always aware that the opposition may choose to attack in particular as the game gets to the closing stages. He cannot allow his intensity to drop when he is only on for 15 minutes and the game is getting to the crucial stage!

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by longlivethecrumbie » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:48 am

mightymouse wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:02 am
I think the week off after internationals may have left us a bit disjointed and the squad will hopefully improve being together for the next few weeks.
One player who I think rarely gets a mention and yet was outstanding again on Sunday was Wells. His tackle count must be immense and he makes crucial turnovers as well as an improved carrying game .. He is always at the centre of the driving mauls in addition to scrum and lineout work.
I agree Nadola did not have his best game but
I think the criticism of the scrum and Cole in particular was a little unfair.
The first few penalties, which were in front of me should clearly gone the other way. Their Tighthead either lost footing because his feet were too far back or he turned in and down. Each time Genge was penalised I assume because his elbow was pointing downwards. Most referees have no understanding of scrum dynamics have never been in one. A loosehead has very little impact pulling down on a shirt around the side/ belly area (he has to put his hand somewhere and he would have to be double jointed to get it in the back!) The tighthead in contrast can make huge impact with the elbow in a downward position because as it comes over the loose heads left shoulder and arm it can be used as a very powerful lever if allowed by the ref.
I do think Marler had an excellent game also but mainly in the loose and he negated Cole in the tight, but I think that side was a fairly even contest. Once Genge was allowed to drive he got the upper hand but the scrum just pivoted on a static other side.
When Heyes came on I thought he held Marler just about for the first couple but then came the big one! Marler did an absolute number on him in that one and That concerns me. Heyes at the level he is supposed to be at (considered by England) should not be getting a mauling like that by anyone! I wonder with him if it’s a concentration thing. Not every scrum is a full out contest sometimes props especially in the middle of the game coast in the scrum ( especially if they’re equally matched) but you have to be always aware that the opposition may choose to attack in particular as the game gets to the closing stages. He cannot allow his intensity to drop when he is only on for 15 minutes and the game is getting to the crucial stage!
You say that about Hayes, but Collier had him eating his own backside at a couple of scrums on our side and did a very good job on him tbh. Let's be honest, Marler is a class act and you're not going to come up against players of his class every day of the week. Heyes is still learning and hasn't had much game time this season because of the form of Coley. Is Heyes the heir apparent? I think so, but he's not at the same stage that Coley was at when he took on the mantle from Castro.

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:47 am

Hayes looks a different shape this season, so it might be a period of adjustment.
The most promising young prop we have, for me is Whitcombe.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by nicmattyg » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:01 am

Have we got a scrum coach now or has Borthwick took that on? Noticeable that the scrum seems to have dropped off since Boris left us when I remember it was probably the only thing that worked well for us during the big depression phase. Or are we lacking a (couple of?) bulkier scrummaging second rows? Lavanini for all his faults was excellent in the scrum

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by ourla » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:34 am

Watched the game in full last night.

Wasn't a classic but two very good sides that did a lot to nullify each other which in turn limited their own opportunities.

Thought the officials were fine, not perfect but nowhere near a horror show for me.

We are winning some of these games quite ugly at the minute. No bad thing. Need to build for the business end of the season. Some of chances will have be taken then and mistakes eradicated to lift a trophy. But in Borthwick we trust.
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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by mol2 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:11 pm

Bewildering that Lynagh got away with advancing from an offside position in close proximity to the ball.

He had to actively retreat until played on side. Yet was ahead of the kicker and just advanced and joined in the rackle/ruck.

Some of the scrum calls looked like pure guesswork by the ref. Genge on his feet, torso parallel to the ground. Collier folded in on himself with head and arm on the deck.

Don't think Marler drove straight until one against Heyes near the end.

Our maul was too easily negated. Seemed to rotate rather than change the angle of drive which put Quins behind us without their needing to break their bind so all they had to do was put enough players in to stop us going forward and we were going to be turned over as we didn't keep the back door open to get the ball out. Effectively this allowed them to commit as many players as they needed to stop the maul with no concer about us spinning it wide. That's when you have to bring the backs in to get the ball carrier over the line who can the drop to the ground with the ball. Which we didn't having done so effectively for much of the season.

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by fentiger » Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:22 pm

Mol2 I think we deliberately didn't commit backs into the maul incase Quins turned us over and attacked. As you say in several previous games we did that with some success, a case of hedging bets I reckon?

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by westwinds31 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:16 pm

The maul was interesting. Watching it back, there's quite a bit of skull-duggery from Quins, pulling players out, driving players off the maul itself (Marler) and general disruption techniques - why not if you can get away with it. I notice Gloucester had a good defensive maul move where as soon as the line out ball taker landed, they got a pincer movement in place, one person on each side of the maul and driving in, to stop the maul going to one side or the other, which is where you lose players and the attacking side can push on through - as we have with Montoya/Dolly on many occasions this season.

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by Old Hob » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:21 pm

fentiger wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:22 pm
Mol2 I think we deliberately didn't commit backs into the maul incase Quins turned us over and attacked. As you say in several previous games we did that with some success, a case of hedging bets I reckon?
By not committing backs though there is more likelihood of the maul being stopped - it's a bit damned if you do...
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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by mol2 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:48 pm

Absolutely. Overcommit and there are risks so you have to protect the ball so don't lose the ball and the worst outcome is a scrum.

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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by Big Dai » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:57 pm

mol2 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:11 pm
Bewildering that Lynagh got away with advancing from an offside position in close proximity to the ball.

He had to actively retreat until played on side. Yet was ahead of the kicker and just advanced and joined in the rackle/ruck.

Some of the scrum calls looked like pure guesswork by the ref. Genge on his feet, torso parallel to the ground. Collier folded in on himself with head and arm on the deck.

Don't think Marler drove straight until one against Heyes near the end.

Our maul was too easily negated. Seemed to rotate rather than change the angle of drive which put Quins behind us without their needing to break their bind so all they had to do was put enough players in to stop us going forward and we were going to be turned over as we didn't keep the back door open to get the ball out. Effectively this allowed them to commit as many players as they needed to stop the maul with no concer about us spinning it wide. That's when you have to bring the backs in to get the ball carrier over the line who can the drop to the ground with the ball. Which we didn't having done so effectively for much of the season.
Posh Richard reckons all calls at the scrum concerning the front row are guesswork. I'm not so sure about "all" but, as others have said, when faced with a bloke like Marler, we'll versed in the dark arts, it's easy for sir to be sold a few dummies.

The scrum goes wrong and everyone jumps on the front row. I just wonder how much Snyman pulling out late disrupted things. That's the engine room of the scrum and the line out / maul "interferred" with.

That unit must have trained together all week, only to be changed at the eleventh hour.

(This is chapter 3 in the book of props' excuses, "The Face of Wounded innocence".........Which was admirably demonstrated by Mr Cole on Sunday.)
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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by Tigerbeat » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:00 pm

mol2 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:48 pm
Absolutely. Overcommit and there are risks so you have to protect the ball so don't lose the ball and the worst outcome is a scrum.
All about risk and reward.....be prepared to lose what you have gained!
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Re: Tigers vs Quins - 05th December 2021 - 3-00pm

Post by DeadlyDunc » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:16 pm

In his post match interview Cole was asked about the scrum side of things and it was inferred he was the lead on all things scrummaging at the moment.

Maybe a case of two and two but perhaps indicates he’s part coaching / part playing with a view to becoming a full time scrum coach when he retires (hopefully in a fair few years time yet!)

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