Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

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RagingBull
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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by RagingBull » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:23 pm

Borthwick has been pretty open about it
"One day, it might well have been the first day, when I wanted to watch and learn a little more about players, that, on that day, I asked one of the training groups to leave the field. Because the standard for which they were performing, their attitude to it wasn't the sufficient standard that I expected.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by fentiger » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:43 pm

RagingBull wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:23 pm
Borthwick has been pretty open about it
"One day, it might well have been the first day, when I wanted to watch and learn a little more about players, that, on that day, I asked one of the training groups to leave the field. Because the standard for which they were performing, their attitude to it wasn't the sufficient standard that I expected.
TBF I've seen that quoted before, can't honestly think it would still be happening with the current group of players!

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Scott1 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:55 pm

fentiger wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:43 pm
RagingBull wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:23 pm
Borthwick has been pretty open about it
"One day, it might well have been the first day, when I wanted to watch and learn a little more about players, that, on that day, I asked one of the training groups to leave the field. Because the standard for which they were performing, their attitude to it wasn't the sufficient standard that I expected.
TBF I've seen that quoted before, can't honestly think it would still be happening with the current group of players!
+1

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Tiglon » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:30 pm

I think that quote sums up what has changed under SB. Interesting in Murphy's recent interview that he had similar feelings when he took over from MOC and regrets not being firmer.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Cardiff Tig » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:38 pm

It will be interesting to see if his management style evolves over the next few seasons. Seems very similar to the EJ approach and may not be suited to an extended time e.g. Club rugby.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Scott1 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:39 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:38 pm
It will be interesting to see if his management style evolves over the next few seasons. Seems very similar to the EJ approach and may not be suited to an extended time e.g. Club rugby.
Great point!

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by RagingBull » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:44 pm

I mean it’s already been 18 months

it’s also not really what I would call the Eddie jones approach either. Borthwick pushes players yes but sounds like he puts in every waking hour he’s awake into analyzing everything and giving feedback to the players.

Nadolo was saying that over here all the coaching is very individual based unlike alot of other setups he’s been in, mentioned how it’s similar to the crusaders, and that it’s made him fall back in love with rugby.

Also got to remember it’s very much a balanced coaching group in terms of personalities.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Tiglon » Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:53 pm

I would think it's impossible to have an Eddie Jones approach in club rugby, fine when you only see people for a few weeks at a time, but to keep that up day in day out? At some point even Eddie would slip up and show his human side!

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Cardiff Tig » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:13 pm

I don't doubt that he's done a good job and in this 18 months hes made massive changes and improvements. But only time will tell when those improvements are much harder to get (the top 1%) and its about maintaing a team at a high level if the management style stays the same.

Reminds me a bit of RC at Edinburgh.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by RagingBull » Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:56 pm

Well which is it Cockerill or Eddie because both of those have different styles also.

Cockers downfall with Edinburgh like it was with us was it was too set in his ways and he lost the dressing room. (Could argue that due to Edinburgh finances he wasn't able to do what Borthwick could with us and clear out players and have his own Assistant coaches)
Will say whilst Edinburgh are riding high currently they have yet to play a single Irish team.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by ay2oh » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:02 pm

Borthwick and Cockerill are very different personalities. Cockerill was very autocratic and had “undroppable “ favourites whereas Borthwick regularly rotates the side to ensure everyone gets game time .
A2O

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Cardiff Tig » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:26 pm

RagingBull wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:56 pm
Well which is it Cockerill or Eddie because both of those have different styles also.

Cockers downfall with Edinburgh like it was with us was it was too set in his ways and he lost the dressing room. (Could argue that due to Edinburgh finances he wasn't able to do what Borthwick could with us and clear out players and have his own Assistant coaches)
Will say whilst Edinburgh are riding high currently they have yet to play a single Irish team.
But this is my point about losing the dressing room. RC made great improvements to Edinburgh over the 2 seasons and then his management style didn't evolve once he'd got the systems in place. I'm not really talking about the rugby ideas as much.

Borthwick has been under EJ for the majority of his coaching life, so it will be interesting to see how his man management evolves over the next few seasons. Assuming he's not in charge of England by then...

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by Scott1 » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:29 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:26 pm
RagingBull wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:56 pm
Well which is it Cockerill or Eddie because both of those have different styles also.

Cockers downfall with Edinburgh like it was with us was it was too set in his ways and he lost the dressing room. (Could argue that due to Edinburgh finances he wasn't able to do what Borthwick could with us and clear out players and have his own Assistant coaches)
Will say whilst Edinburgh are riding high currently they have yet to play a single Irish team.
But this is my point about losing the dressing room. RC made great improvements to Edinburgh over the 2 seasons and then his management style didn't evolve once he'd got the systems in place. I'm not really talking about the rugby ideas as much.

Borthwick has been under EJ for the majority of his coaching life, so it will be interesting to see how his man management evolves over the next few seasons. Assuming he's not in charge of England by then...
I get your point clearly,Eddie has a shelf life that expires,always has. I believe this is his longest stint (now he’s extended his time with England). Of course you have to worry if Borths will be the same after spending so much time with Eddie. Only time will tell but signs look good.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by RagingBull » Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:51 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 4:26 pm
RagingBull wrote:
Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:56 pm
Well which is it Cockerill or Eddie because both of those have different styles also.

Cockers downfall with Edinburgh like it was with us was it was too set in his ways and he lost the dressing room. (Could argue that due to Edinburgh finances he wasn't able to do what Borthwick could with us and clear out players and have his own Assistant coaches)
Will say whilst Edinburgh are riding high currently they have yet to play a single Irish team.
But this is my point about losing the dressing room. RC made great improvements to Edinburgh over the 2 seasons and then his management style didn't evolve once he'd got the systems in place. I'm not really talking about the rugby ideas as much.

Borthwick has been under EJ for the majority of his coaching life, so it will be interesting to see how his man management evolves over the next few seasons. Assuming he's not in charge of England by then...
But that's also my point.
Cockers couldn't change the dressing room whereas Borthwick has clearly weeded out players (Which is mentioned in this thread as something Murphy had said he wished he had done)

Borthwick as a personality is very different to Eddie.
Eddie is the most out there coach in rugby, he's constantly in the media stirring up stuff, writing books and giving interviews. Borthwick just isn't that person. Borthwick clearly holds similar ideas in terms of how to play both favour tall 6's they like having a second playmaker at 15 unless someone stands out such as Freddie but i've not seen anything too suggest they're much alike outside their liking for hard workers in training.

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Re: Progress under Borthwick 2021/22

Post by longlivethecrumbie » Sat Jan 22, 2022 5:16 pm

Just throwing this out there as a thought....

......are there any of us learned folk on here who think that thinks Borthwick may prefer the day to day detail of club management rather than the short, sharp periods of international rugby and therefore may not be interested in the England job?

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