The start of the end?

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GB72
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by GB72 »

Sadly, any changes going forward are not going to be the issue. There are an increasing number of ex players coming forward with claims based on a significant reduction in quality of life based on impacts sustained playing rugby. They are looking for compensation and all it would take is for a case to set precedent and there will be trouble.

The RFU is not in the strongest of financial places and nor are the clubs and so a few high profile cases could very easily become financially crippling to the sport as a whole. The NFL had the finances to pay their way out of their claims, football probably has the money to support ex players as a result of the heading cases. Rugby just does not have the money to pay out the sort of claims that may be on the table for brain injury cases.
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by jgriffin »

This was predicted many years ago by Tom McNab, both a UK Athletics national coach and a rugby coach. He said that professionalisation would bring increased fitness, this would result in more muscle mass, lower body fat, greater power and vastly increased potential for serious injury (he was talking about muscloskeletal).
The remedy is on this thread and been repeated by Nigel Owens last week - it's in applying the Laws over the tackle area, zero tolerance policing of offside etc., plus defining a tackle zone.
You cannot reduce risk totally in any physical activity. Logically, offering a painted road crossing, even with lights, could lead to lawsuits against Highways Authority (county councils) for giving the opportunity for road accident injury. Life is full of risk.
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Cagey Tiger
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Cagey Tiger »

CrumblingTerrace wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:23 am There's a question I'm pondering that's at the heart of these comments... is the risk greater from: (a) introducing 'impact players', or; (b) from leaving fatigued players on-pitch?
Currently we have both at the end of most games.

I would say that, as has already been said in various ways, if you are probably going to play the full 80 minutes unless you get injured, you'll train more for stamina and less for strength and won't want to be carrying more weight than you need.
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:52 am The authorities are working on making the game more safer and trying to educate players. There is a risk in all sports and people who play them recognise it. Horse racing, the jockey could be thrown from the horse and suffer back neck injuries, lifechanging. Motor racing is plagued with danger.
People who come into play sports must be aware of the possible dangers and measures need to be put in place to reduce the number of injuries and the impacts. The only way to take away any risk is to stop the sport.
A big difference in rugby for me is that physicality is so much part of the culture. We mostly all enjoy this side of the game, and much as we like to talk about taking the brutal fouling and fighting out of the game, for many of us this is our guilty pleasure. Search for rugby videos on YouTube and you’ll find as many called something like “brutal hits” or “epic rugby fights” as you will “stunning tries”. Before anyone argues that YouTube is a Gen Z platform and we on this forum are too mature for this mindset - I’d refer you to the current thread on ‘Greatest ever Tigers XV’, which ended up with a side with 15 Julian Whites! Yes, it was a joke…but a joke that betrayed an uncomfortable truth. Despite rugby’s attempts to clean itself up, we are still prone to seeing violence not just as an unfortunate peripheral element of the game…but something that is integral.

Note the use of “we/us” throughout - I admit to being prone to this guilty pleasure myself.
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:58 am
Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:52 am The authorities are working on making the game more safer and trying to educate players. There is a risk in all sports and people who play them recognise it. Horse racing, the jockey could be thrown from the horse and suffer back neck injuries, lifechanging. Motor racing is plagued with danger.
People who come into play sports must be aware of the possible dangers and measures need to be put in place to reduce the number of injuries and the impacts. The only way to take away any risk is to stop the sport.
A big difference in rugby for me is that physicality is so much part of the culture. We mostly all enjoy this side of the game, and much as we like to talk about taking the brutal fouling and fighting out of the game, for many of us this is our guilty pleasure. Search for rugby videos on YouTube and you’ll find as many called something like “brutal hits” or “epic rugby fights” as you will “stunning tries”. Before anyone argues that YouTube is a Gen Z platform and we on this forum are too mature for this mindset - I’d refer you to the current thread on ‘Greatest ever Tigers XV’, which ended up with a side with 15 Julian Whites! Yes, it was a joke…but a joke that betrayed an uncomfortable truth. Despite rugby’s attempts to clean itself up, we are still prone to seeing violence not just as an unfortunate peripheral element of the game…but something that is integral.

Note the use of “we/us” throughout - I admit to being prone to this guilty pleasure myself.
Guilty here too! Meyers famous quote about contact,ballroom dancing and collisions really blew me away and I've always said id prefer a player to run over another rather than around him so I can't talk I'm afraid.
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

a
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:24 am
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:58 am
Tigerbeat wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:52 am The authorities are working on making the game more safer and trying to educate players. There is a risk in all sports and people who play them recognise it. Horse racing, the jockey could be thrown from the horse and suffer back neck injuries, lifechanging. Motor racing is plagued with danger.
People who come into play sports must be aware of the possible dangers and measures need to be put in place to reduce the number of injuries and the impacts. The only way to take away any risk is to stop the sport.
A big difference in rugby for me is that physicality is so much part of the culture. We mostly all enjoy this side of the game, and much as we like to talk about taking the brutal fouling and fighting out of the game, for many of us this is our guilty pleasure. Search for rugby videos on YouTube and you’ll find as many called something like “brutal hits” or “epic rugby fights” as you will “stunning tries”. Before anyone argues that YouTube is a Gen Z platform and we on this forum are too mature for this mindset - I’d refer you to the current thread on ‘Greatest ever Tigers XV’, which ended up with a side with 15 Julian Whites! Yes, it was a joke…but a joke that betrayed an uncomfortable truth. Despite rugby’s attempts to clean itself up, we are still prone to seeing violence not just as an unfortunate peripheral element of the game…but something that is integral.

Note the use of “we/us” throughout - I admit to being prone to this guilty pleasure myself.
Guilty here too! Meyers famous quote about contact,ballroom dancing and collisions really blew me away and I've always said id prefer a player to run over another rather than around him so I can't talk I'm afraid.
So how do we change this? We will have to if we want the game to survive as anything more than a fringe sport. Junior clubs are really struggling to recover from the loss of young people - accelerated in the past year by COVID, but it’s a long term trend, and the culture perpetuated by we dinosaurs is part of the problem.
Last edited by chris111 on Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:07 am
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:24 am
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:58 am

A big difference in rugby for me is that physicality is so much part of the culture. We mostly all enjoy this side of the game, and much as we like to talk about taking the brutal fouling and fighting out of the game, for many of us this is our guilty pleasure. Search for rugby videos on YouTube and you’ll find as many called something like “brutal hits” or “epic rugby fights” as you will “stunning tries”. Before anyone argues that YouTube is a Gen Z platform and we on this forum are too mature for this mindset - I’d refer you to the current thread on ‘Greatest ever Tigers XV’, which ended up with a side with 15 Julian Whites! Yes, it was a joke…but a joke that betrayed an uncomfortable truth. Despite rugby’s attempts to clean itself up, we are still prone to seeing violence not just as an unfortunate peripheral element of the game…but something that is integral.

Note the use of “we/us” throughout - I admit to being prone to this guilty pleasure myself.
Guilty here too! Meyers famous quote about contact,ballroom dancing and collisions really blew me away and I've always said id prefer a player to run over another rather than around him so I can't talk I'm afraid.
So how do we change this? We will have to if we want the game to survive as anything more than a fringe sport? Junior clubs are really struggling to recover from the loss of young people - accelerated in the past year by COVID, but it’s a long term trend, and the culture perpetuated by we dinosaurs is part of the problem.
I think we have to be even more stricter with concussions. It's out there already that players are cheating on their base concussion tests so they can get back on the field (although I'm not sure if this has been cottoned onto now and altered). For me a minimum 28 day ban from all contact if you fail a HIA,regardless of the return to play protocols.
Secondly we have to sort the contact area out,no rucking until you're bound on,these torpedoes have to be stopped. I'm not sure about lowering the tackle area though,knee on head is very dangerous too and could lead to more head injuries. Your ideas/thoughts?
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:14 am
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:07 am
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:24 am

Guilty here too! Meyers famous quote about contact,ballroom dancing and collisions really blew me away and I've always said id prefer a player to run over another rather than around him so I can't talk I'm afraid.
So how do we change this? We will have to if we want the game to survive as anything more than a fringe sport? Junior clubs are really struggling to recover from the loss of young people - accelerated in the past year by COVID, but it’s a long term trend, and the culture perpetuated by we dinosaurs is part of the problem.
I think we have to be even more stricter with concussions. It's out there already that platers are cheating on their base concussion tests so they can get back on the field (although I'm not sure if this has been cottoned onto now and altered). For me a minimum 28 day ban from all contact if you fail a HIA,regardless of the return to play protocols.
Secondly we have to sort the contact area out,no rucking until you're bound on,these torpedoes have to be stopped. I'm not sure about lowering the tackle area though,knee on head is very dangerous too and could lead to more head injuries. Your ideas/thoughts?
Tinkering with the rules usually has unintended consequences…especially around the breakdown, where any attempt to restrict the clear out will slow the game to a standstill. I agree that lowering the tackle is not a perfect solution - it seems to have mostly just shifted the injury risk from the tackled to the tackler.

There’s no getting around the fact that the fundamentals of the game are built around physical power and dominance, and so cannot be reformed, but will have to transform. Unpalatable though it is to me, and I suspect most people here, the long-term future of the game (I’m talking 20+ years away) will be as a minimal contact sport. Played somewhat like present day 7s, but maybe with more players. Tackling replaced by touch-sensitive clothing pads in clothing rather like fencing today and a game focused on pace, evasion, ball skills and strategy. Not rugby as we know it, but I’m sure fun to play and a great spectator sport.
GB72
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by GB72 »

I am going to be the voice of doom and gloom on this subject in that I do not think that there is an answer. Rugby is a full contact sport that is often brutal and the fact is that, whilst you can mitigate the worst of it to a certain degree, impacts to the head and concussion are always going to be part of the sport.

There is often talk of rest periods, player welfare etc but then the RFU keeps filling up more of the calender. My only solution to that, aside from in world cup years, players are only allowed to play 5 matches for their country. Yes that would mean different squads for the summer tour, autumn internationals and 6 nations but the pressure on internation player is just too great.

Reducing or removing subs to stop the constant bulking up of players would help as well as tightening the rules at the ruck.

The problem is, the damage has already been done. The RFU has taken action to mitigate the impact of concussion and so there is a far lesser chance of successful legal action going forward. It is the historic actions that pose a massive risk as a precedent case funding club or country liable for damages or care costs will open the floodgates from the top of the sport to the bottom and rugby does not have the finances to cover those costs.
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:34 am I am going to be the voice of doom and gloom on this subject in that I do not think that there is an answer. Rugby is a full contact sport that is often brutal and the fact is that, whilst you can mitigate the worst of it to a certain degree, impacts to the head and concussion are always going to be part of the sport.

There is often talk of rest periods, player welfare etc but then the RFU keeps filling up more of the calender. My only solution to that, aside from in world cup years, players are only allowed to play 5 matches for their country. Yes that would mean different squads for the summer tour, autumn internationals and 6 nations but the pressure on internation player is just too great.

Reducing or removing subs to stop the constant bulking up of players would help as well as tightening the rules at the ruck.

The problem is, the damage has already been done. The RFU has taken action to mitigate the impact of concussion and so there is a far lesser chance of successful legal action going forward. It is the historic actions that pose a massive risk as a precedent case funding club or country liable for damages or care costs will open the floodgates from the top of the sport to the bottom and rugby does not have the finances to cover those costs.
Agreed - hence my earlier forecast of a “post-rugby” world of a minimal contact version of the sport. None of us will like it, but we won’t be around in 50 years (at least, I won’t) so our views are irrelevant.
‘Real’ rugby might survive as a curiosity - a little like those shin-kicking/cheese rolling jamborees that happen on Bank Holidays - or maybe a niche sport for Mad Max role play types! In the mainstream world, it will be a version of tag rugby that flourishes.
GB72
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by GB72 »

Are there the same issues coming out in league?
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

A question for the legally minded because I'm not really up to speed with the NFL legal cases. Who's jurisdiction would the proposed legal claim fall under when they go ahead? I heard about a similar case once that was going to be brought forward by a boxer but the case against was that with the different boards,commissions, different opponents as well as thousands of rounds of sparring how was it possible to pinpoint when the brain injury might have occurred.
Surely this is the same with different clubs,international teams ,training sessions etc. Does it fall under the club,RFU,world rugby etc remit? Many thanks ahead
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by LE18 »

Are players forced to play rugby or do they take up the game of their own free will?
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

LE18 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm Are players forced to play rugby or do they take up the game of their own free will?
Thats another good point too LE!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
GB72
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by GB72 »

LE18 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm Are players forced to play rugby or do they take up the game of their own free will?
Legally speaking I suspect that it has very little relevance, even less so in an employer/employee relationship. Globally, the precedents are well established for player welfare relating to concussion and it is only a matter of whether football or rugby has the first court case to establish those precedents over here.

We are more likely to see rugby in court first as football has the millions needs to set up care programmes for those impacted later in iife.
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