The start of the end?

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Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:59 pm
LE18 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm Are players forced to play rugby or do they take up the game of their own free will?
Legally speaking I suspect that it has very little relevance, even less so in an employer/employee relationship. Globally, the precedents are well established for player welfare relating to concussion and it is only a matter of whether football or rugby has the first court case to establish those precedents over here.

We are more likely to see rugby in court first as football has the millions needs to set up care programmes for those impacted later in iife.
Who foots the compensation bill though? Will it be World Rugby being sued? RFU? The players clubs? All of the above? It's easier to pinpoint a brain injury if the player was knocked out in a certain game but most brain injuries are accumulative. How can it proved where the damage has taken place? Some clubs training is as intense as some games,really interested in this but can't the buck just be passed? Seems a legal minefield to me
Last edited by Scott1 on Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:59 pm
LE18 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm Are players forced to play rugby or do they take up the game of their own free will?
Legally speaking I suspect that it has very little relevance, even less so in an employer/employee relationship. Globally, the precedents are well established for player welfare relating to concussion and it is only a matter of whether football or rugby has the first court case to establish those precedents over here.

We are more likely to see rugby in court first as football has the millions needs to set up care programmes for those impacted later in iife.
Agreed. Think about the tobacco industry. The turning point came when they could no longer plead ignorance about the health implications of smoking. Just because people are judged to have taken up of their own free will, it won’t let the authorities off the hook. If they claim they have sufficient protocols in place to make it safe and the evidence proves this to be wrong, then they will be found liable.

However, this is all moot. Whether or not the courts find them liable, the publicity will make it untenable for the sport to continue as it is.
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:07 pm
GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:59 pm
LE18 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm Are players forced to play rugby or do they take up the game of their own free will?
Legally speaking I suspect that it has very little relevance, even less so in an employer/employee relationship. Globally, the precedents are well established for player welfare relating to concussion and it is only a matter of whether football or rugby has the first court case to establish those precedents over here.

We are more likely to see rugby in court first as football has the millions needs to set up care programmes for those impacted later in iife.
Agreed. Think about the tobacco industry. The turning point came when they could no longer plead ignorance about the health implications of smoking. Just because people are judged to have taken up of their own free will, it won’t let the authorities off the hook. If they claim they have sufficient protocols in place to make it safe and the evidence proves this to be wrong, then they will be found liable.

However, this is all moot. Whether or not the courts find them liable, the publicity will make it untenable for the sport to continue as it is.
Will it? They havnt stopped head shots in boxing have they? Just playing devils advocate here
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Nofrontteeth
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Nofrontteeth »

The complexities of professional sport. The 'Employer shall/must/may' and the Employee 'must all under the subjective caveat of "so far as is reasonably practicable". Strict burden of proof, beyond all reasonable doubt.
The lesser burden of proof lay in civil action and probability. Concussions with which team/employer? Who would you sue?

What case law would the lawyers chase - asbestosis?
GB72
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by GB72 »

I think much will depend on the wording of the legal action. I am really guessing here but I suspect that it will be based around players being pushed to play whilst concussed or being put on the pitch when they were knowingly still suffering following a head injury as well as having no concussion protocols in place. You know, those incidents that, in our less informed days, we used to applaud as there was no greater sign of dedication than a player being spark out then getting up and playing on manfully.
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:30 pm I think much will depend on the wording of the legal action. I am really guessing here but I suspect that it will be based around players being pushed to play whilst concussed or being put on the pitch when they were knowingly still suffering following a head injury as well as having no concussion protocols in place. You know, those incidents that, in our less informed days, we used to applaud as there was no greater sign of dedication than a player being spark out then getting up and playing on manfully.
Easy one for George Smith then !!!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:08 pm
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:07 pm
GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:59 pm

Legally speaking I suspect that it has very little relevance, even less so in an employer/employee relationship. Globally, the precedents are well established for player welfare relating to concussion and it is only a matter of whether football or rugby has the first court case to establish those precedents over here.

We are more likely to see rugby in court first as football has the millions needs to set up care programmes for those impacted later in iife.
Agreed. Think about the tobacco industry. The turning point came when they could no longer plead ignorance about the health implications of smoking. Just because people are judged to have taken up of their own free will, it won’t let the authorities off the hook. If they claim they have sufficient protocols in place to make it safe and the evidence proves this to be wrong, then they will be found liable.

However, this is all moot. Whether or not the courts find them liable, the publicity will make it untenable for the sport to continue as it is.
Will it? They havnt stopped head shots in boxing have they? Just playing devils advocate here
Boxing is pretty much a minority sport, I’d say. And it only takes 2 people for a boxing match, so if rugby participation shrank to the level of boxing, it’s going to very rapidly fade away. Just look at our local clubs. Ones that used to run 5 or more sides down to 1 or 2. Age group teams folding or having to combine across two years to make up a team. The canary is chirping its last breath!
I hasten to add that I’m not basing this on actual risk. It’s perceived risk that will decide on rugby’s future, and the perception of risk is growing rapidly.
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:33 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:08 pm
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:07 pm

Agreed. Think about the tobacco industry. The turning point came when they could no longer plead ignorance about the health implications of smoking. Just because people are judged to have taken up of their own free will, it won’t let the authorities off the hook. If they claim they have sufficient protocols in place to make it safe and the evidence proves this to be wrong, then they will be found liable.

However, this is all moot. Whether or not the courts find them liable, the publicity will make it untenable for the sport to continue as it is.
Will it? They havnt stopped head shots in boxing have they? Just playing devils advocate here
Boxing is pretty much a minority sport, I’d say. And it only takes 2 people for a boxing match, so if rugby participation shrank to the level of boxing, it’s going to very rapidly fade away. Just look at our local clubs. Ones that used to run 5 or more sides down to 1 or 2. Age group teams folding or having to combine across two years to make up a team. The canary is chirping its last breath!
I hasten to add that I’m not basing this on actual risk. It’s perceived risk that will decide on rugby’s future, and the perception of risk is growing rapidly.
It is ,buts its still bigger than union and there's way more money in the sport. Its far easier to prove brain injuries too due to the nature of continuously being punched in the head! But the legal claims are none existent
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Wes
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Wes »

To carry on devils advocate

Boxing numbers - 775,000 https://www.statista.com/statistics/899 ... pation-uk/

Rugby numbers - 250, 000 (inc league) https://www.statista.com/topics/3208/ru ... ingdom-uk/

That's a lot of people getting punched repeatedly in the head!
I only live there to wind up the population!
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by BFG »

Boxing and rugby are not really comparable.
Pro boxers fight very few times per year.
Rugby players play every week.
Rugby has to eliminate subconcussive impacts where possible and already seems to be doing so with reduced contact training and being more strict on tackle height, but it also needs to modify areas to accommodate being a more regular participation sport.
Defensive offsides and the ruck need attention, we've all been saying it for years!
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

BFG wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:19 pm Boxing and rugby are not really comparable.
Pro boxers fight very few times per year.
Rugby players play every week.
Rugby has to eliminate subconcussive impacts where possible and already seems to be doing so with reduced contact training and being more strict on tackle height, but it also needs to modify areas to accommodate being a more regular participation sport.
Defensive offsides and the ruck need attention, we've all been saying it for years!
What about the thousands of rounds of sparring that almost always turn into testosterone fuelled wars?! And only the very elite fighters fight seldomly ,those at the lower levels fight way more frequently
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

Wes wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:08 pm To carry on devils advocate

Boxing numbers - 775,000 https://www.statista.com/statistics/899 ... pation-uk/

Rugby numbers - 250, 000 (inc league) https://www.statista.com/topics/3208/ru ... ingdom-uk/

That's a lot of people getting punched repeatedly in the head!
Thanks 👍
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:26 pm
Wes wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:08 pm To carry on devils advocate

Boxing numbers - 775,000 https://www.statista.com/statistics/899 ... pation-uk/

Rugby numbers - 250, 000 (inc league) https://www.statista.com/topics/3208/ru ... ingdom-uk/

That's a lot of people getting punched repeatedly in the head!
Thanks 👍
I’m beginning to introducing boxing into the debate! However, now the hare is running, it’s worth noting that the data quoted here includes ‘fitness boxing’ - and last time I saw a such a class going on in my gym there were definitely no head punches landing! Not sure if anyone’s got a break down of what proportion of the 775k are actually involved in fighting, but my guess is it’s a small one.

All, of course, not adding a great deal to the rugby debate. I spend enough time around junior rugby, talking to young people, to parents and to coaches to have a good sense of where I think the game is going. Others will, of course, disagree, but for me, the talk of changing the break down law, stricter HIAs and substitution restrictions is utterly futile tinkering. It won’t be immediate because the generation running the game today seemingly can’t comprehend it - but I am personally absolutely convinced that in 20-30 years time rugby will look largely like today’s tag rugby.
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:00 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:26 pm
Wes wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:08 pm To carry on devils advocate

Boxing numbers - 775,000 https://www.statista.com/statistics/899 ... pation-uk/

Rugby numbers - 250, 000 (inc league) https://www.statista.com/topics/3208/ru ... ingdom-uk/

That's a lot of people getting punched repeatedly in the head!
Thanks 👍
I’m beginning to introducing boxing into the debate! However, now the hare is running, it’s worth noting that the data quoted here includes ‘fitness boxing’ - and last time I saw a such a class going on in my gym there were definitely no head punches landing! Not sure if anyone’s got a break down of what proportion of the 775k are actually involved in fighting, but my guess is it’s a small one.

All, of course, not adding a great deal to the rugby debate. I spend enough time around junior rugby, talking to young people, to parents and to coaches to have a good sense of where I think the game is going. Others will, of course, disagree, but for me, the talk of changing the break down law, stricter HIAs and substitution restrictions is utterly futile tinkering. It won’t be immediate because the generation running the game today seemingly can’t comprehend it - but I am personally absolutely convinced that in 20-30 years time rugby will look largely like today’s tag rugby.
Can't see it,like I said we havnt got professional body punching boxing so we won't have contactless rugby.
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
GB72
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by GB72 »

From what I have seen and heard around my way, parents are simply scared to let their kids play rugby and so many that have not got any rugby background in the family tend to keep their kids away from it. Those that let them play tend to start getting nervous when contact starts and then there are those who pull their kids away from the sport when they turn up to watch and see them battered by an opposition that has had an early growth spurt and are 6ft and sporting a moustache at the age of 13.

Press like this just helps bolster their argument to keep their kids out of the game and if that continues then we are going to struggle. Even now we are losing more senior players who simply cannot take the time off work with injuries or those, like myself, who found I was in no way suited to what rugby had become in comparison to the sport I started out playing.

Testing times indeed.
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