The start of the end?

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chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:15 pm
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:00 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:26 pm

Thanks 👍
I’m beginning to introducing boxing into the debate! However, now the hare is running, it’s worth noting that the data quoted here includes ‘fitness boxing’ - and last time I saw a such a class going on in my gym there were definitely no head punches landing! Not sure if anyone’s got a break down of what proportion of the 775k are actually involved in fighting, but my guess is it’s a small one.

All, of course, not adding a great deal to the rugby debate. I spend enough time around junior rugby, talking to young people, to parents and to coaches to have a good sense of where I think the game is going. Others will, of course, disagree, but for me, the talk of changing the break down law, stricter HIAs and substitution restrictions is utterly futile tinkering. It won’t be immediate because the generation running the game today seemingly can’t comprehend it - but I am personally absolutely convinced that in 20-30 years time rugby will look largely like today’s tag rugby.
Can't see it,like I said we havnt got professional body punching boxing so we won't have contactless rugby.
OK - we’re all speculating…and not sure about you, Scott, but I probably won’t be around in 2050 to see who’s proven to be right! I think we can all agree that the game will look different - we’re only disagreeing on the extent.
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:20 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:15 pm
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:00 pm

I’m beginning to introducing boxing into the debate! However, now the hare is running, it’s worth noting that the data quoted here includes ‘fitness boxing’ - and last time I saw a such a class going on in my gym there were definitely no head punches landing! Not sure if anyone’s got a break down of what proportion of the 775k are actually involved in fighting, but my guess is it’s a small one.

All, of course, not adding a great deal to the rugby debate. I spend enough time around junior rugby, talking to young people, to parents and to coaches to have a good sense of where I think the game is going. Others will, of course, disagree, but for me, the talk of changing the break down law, stricter HIAs and substitution restrictions is utterly futile tinkering. It won’t be immediate because the generation running the game today seemingly can’t comprehend it - but I am personally absolutely convinced that in 20-30 years time rugby will look largely like today’s tag rugby.
Can't see it,like I said we havnt got professional body punching boxing so we won't have contactless rugby.
OK - we’re all speculating…and not sure about you, Scott, but I probably won’t be around in 2050 to see who’s proven to be right! I think we can all agree that the game will look different - we’re only disagreeing on the extent.
It will ,I just hope it's not watered down too much mate!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:18 pm From what I have seen and heard around my way, parents are simply scared to let their kids play rugby and so many that have not got any rugby background in the family tend to keep their kids away from it. Those that let them play tend to start getting nervous when contact starts and then there are those who pull their kids away from the sport when they turn up to watch and see them battered by an opposition that has had an early growth spurt and are 6ft and sporting a moustache at the age of 13.

Press like this just helps bolster their argument to keep their kids out of the game and if that continues then we are going to struggle. Even now we are losing more senior players who simply cannot take the time off work with injuries or those, like myself, who found I was in no way suited to what rugby had become in comparison to the sport I started out playing.

Testing times indeed.
I’m with you, GB. I don’t relish the prospect of a non-contact future - I played my rugby in the late 70s, early 80s and I’m steeped in the blood and guts version of the game. However, given a choice of seeing the game disappear as a result of the obvious societal changes that threaten it, and watching it transform into a completely different but nonetheless exciting sport to play and watch, I’ll gladly opt for the latter.
ourla
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by ourla »

I've been working in IT for a long time.

It's clearly not good for you health to be sitting down for long periods looking at a computer screen but people still do it.

Police men and women, and the military inevitably risk life and limb in their work.

Etc., etc.

The principle that you can't do something because it is a danger to your health doesn't seem to hold up.
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:27 pm
GB72 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:18 pm From what I have seen and heard around my way, parents are simply scared to let their kids play rugby and so many that have not got any rugby background in the family tend to keep their kids away from it. Those that let them play tend to start getting nervous when contact starts and then there are those who pull their kids away from the sport when they turn up to watch and see them battered by an opposition that has had an early growth spurt and are 6ft and sporting a moustache at the age of 13.

Press like this just helps bolster their argument to keep their kids out of the game and if that continues then we are going to struggle. Even now we are losing more senior players who simply cannot take the time off work with injuries or those, like myself, who found I was in no way suited to what rugby had become in comparison to the sport I started out playing.

Testing times indeed.
I’m with you, GB. I don’t relish the prospect of a non-contact future - I played my rugby in the late 70s, early 80s and I’m steeped in the blood and guts version of the game. However, given a choice of seeing the game disappear as a result of the obvious societal changes that threaten it, and watching it transform into a completely different but nonetheless exciting sport to play and watch, I’ll gladly opt for the latter.
Selfishly, I'd prefer the sport to disappear if it ended up being a shadow of its former self. I don't care for 7s or league as it is
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

ourla wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:06 pm I've been working in IT for a long time.

It's clearly not good for you health to be sitting down for long periods looking at a computer screen but people still do it.

Police men and women, and the military inevitably risk life and limb in their work.

Etc., etc.

The principle that you can't do something because it is a danger to your health doesn't seem to hold up.
Nothing you say is incorrect - but people and societies don’t operate in entirely logical ways! Just because we might want rugby to continue as it is and prosper - and that there are arguments for why it should - doesn’t alter the fact that societal change will make it unrealistic. Most sports, over time, become ‘sanitised’ to an extent…rugby has already gone a way down that road. There are plenty of posters here who revel in nostalgia for the days of punch ups and stud raking, but they didn’t stop watching and loving the game when those aspects were weeded out. As new generations get involved in the sport they have different expectations. I suspect this process will simply continue (and my 30 year vision of a non-contact sport will be reached by gradual evolution rather than a single leap)…and like the frog in the simmering pot, we will mostly adapt!
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:31 pm
ourla wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:06 pm I've been working in IT for a long time.

It's clearly not good for you health to be sitting down for long periods looking at a computer screen but people still do it.

Police men and women, and the military inevitably risk life and limb in their work.

Etc., etc.

The principle that you can't do something because it is a danger to your health doesn't seem to hold up.
Nothing you say is incorrect - but people and societies don’t operate in entirely logical ways! Just because we might want rugby to continue as it is and prosper - and that there are arguments for why it should - doesn’t alter the fact that societal change will make it unrealistic. Most sports, over time, become ‘sanitised’ to an extent…rugby has already gone a way down that road. There are plenty of posters here who revel in nostalgia for the days of punch ups and stud raking, but they didn’t stop watching and loving the game when those aspects were weeded out. As new generations get involved in the sport they have different expectations. I suspect this process will simply continue (and my 30 year vision of a non-contact sport will be reached by gradual evolution rather than a single leap)…and like the frog in the simmering pot, we will mostly adapt!
Your vision of a none contact Sport is a horrible one and is a pipe dream. Like I said we haven't got a body punching professional boxing league so won't happen. We've even had headguards taken away in amateur boxing in some instances
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Cardiff Tig
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Cardiff Tig »

From the few League matches that I watch a season, I would think that sport is actually more at risk. It seems much less worried/careful about head injuries during play with subs and concussion protocols that union, and that says a lot!

My thoughts are that under 18s rugby will cease to exist in the next few years. And by that, I mean rugby as we know it now - there may well be some sort of non-contact version etc. It's already clear that parents are less and less likely to start their kids off playing rugby. With more and more evidence about injuries and the publicity around players having to retire early, I can't see schools and rugby clubs able to get enough 16-18 year olds interested in playing the game, and parental approval for them to as in the first place, for that much longer.

But maybe I'm just pessimistic!
Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

Cardiff Tig wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:14 pm From the few League matches that I watch a season, I would think that sport is actually more at risk. It seems much less worried/careful about head injuries during play with subs and concussion protocols that union, and that says a lot!

My thoughts are that under 18s rugby will cease to exist in the next few years. And by that, I mean rugby as we know it now - there may well be some sort of non-contact version etc. It's already clear that parents are less and less likely to start their kids off playing rugby. With more and more evidence about injuries and the publicity around players having to retire early, I can't see schools and rugby clubs able to get enough 16-18 year olds interested in playing the game, and parental approval for them to as in the first place, for that much longer.

But maybe I'm just pessimistic!
For those that think there's too many high shots in union watch some of the shots in league! It's been cleaned up a tad but at one time the shoulder to head hits were X rated!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by BFG »

Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:25 pm
BFG wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:19 pm Boxing and rugby are not really comparable.
Pro boxers fight very few times per year.
Rugby players play every week.
Rugby has to eliminate subconcussive impacts where possible and already seems to be doing so with reduced contact training and being more strict on tackle height, but it also needs to modify areas to accommodate being a more regular participation sport.
Defensive offsides and the ruck need attention, we've all been saying it for years!
What about the thousands of rounds of sparring that almost always turn into testosterone fuelled wars?! And only the very elite fighters fight seldomly ,those at the lower levels fight way more frequently
Thousands of rounds is an exaggeration.
You make it sound like an extremely regular thing and it's not.
Full on sparring is rare and especially to the head.
Going beyond a prearranged level of control is frowned upon.
chris111
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by chris111 »

Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:47 pm
chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:31 pm
ourla wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:06 pm I've been working in IT for a long time.

It's clearly not good for you health to be sitting down for long periods looking at a computer screen but people still do it.

Police men and women, and the military inevitably risk life and limb in their work.

Etc., etc.

The principle that you can't do something because it is a danger to your health doesn't seem to hold up.
Nothing you say is incorrect - but people and societies don’t operate in entirely logical ways! Just because we might want rugby to continue as it is and prosper - and that there are arguments for why it should - doesn’t alter the fact that societal change will make it unrealistic. Most sports, over time, become ‘sanitised’ to an extent…rugby has already gone a way down that road. There are plenty of posters here who revel in nostalgia for the days of punch ups and stud raking, but they didn’t stop watching and loving the game when those aspects were weeded out. As new generations get involved in the sport they have different expectations. I suspect this process will simply continue (and my 30 year vision of a non-contact sport will be reached by gradual evolution rather than a single leap)…and like the frog in the simmering pot, we will mostly adapt!
Your vision of a none contact Sport is a horrible one and is a pipe dream. Like I said we haven't got a body punching professional boxing league so won't happen. We've even had headguards taken away in amateur boxing in some instances
I’ve said several times this is not what I want to happen, so it’s not a pipe dream! I love rugby the way it is but that doesn’t change my views on the likely end point of the current direction of travel.

Mind you, I don’t share your horror of non-contact sport….I guess you’ve not been tuning into the Olympics, then?!
ourla
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by ourla »

chris111 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:31 pm
ourla wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:06 pm I've been working in IT for a long time.

It's clearly not good for you health to be sitting down for long periods looking at a computer screen but people still do it.

Police men and women, and the military inevitably risk life and limb in their work.

Etc., etc.

The principle that you can't do something because it is a danger to your health doesn't seem to hold up.
Nothing you say is incorrect - but people and societies don’t operate in entirely logical ways! Just because we might want rugby to continue as it is and prosper - and that there are arguments for why it should - doesn’t alter the fact that societal change will make it unrealistic. Most sports, over time, become ‘sanitised’ to an extent…rugby has already gone a way down that road. There are plenty of posters here who revel in nostalgia for the days of punch ups and stud raking, but they didn’t stop watching and loving the game when those aspects were weeded out. As new generations get involved in the sport they have different expectations. I suspect this process will simply continue (and my 30 year vision of a non-contact sport will be reached by gradual evolution rather than a single leap)…and like the frog in the simmering pot, we will mostly adapt!
You mean like boxing and motor racing.

Non contact rugby just isn't happening, this generation or the next IMO.
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Tigerbeat »

In everything we do there is an element of risk. Employers provide training and equipment for their staff to mitigate and reduce any risks in the job. If employees have been trained and choose to ignore what they have been taught, it would be very difficult to put the company at fault.
In rugby, if the players tackle properly and play within the rules the risk of serious injuries will be reduced, but will not totally eliminate injury.
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Scott1
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by Scott1 »

BFG wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:16 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:25 pm
BFG wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 2:19 pm Boxing and rugby are not really comparable.
Pro boxers fight very few times per year.
Rugby players play every week.
Rugby has to eliminate subconcussive impacts where possible and already seems to be doing so with reduced contact training and being more strict on tackle height, but it also needs to modify areas to accommodate being a more regular participation sport.
Defensive offsides and the ruck need attention, we've all been saying it for years!
What about the thousands of rounds of sparring that almost always turn into testosterone fuelled wars?! And only the very elite fighters fight seldomly ,those at the lower levels fight way more frequently
Thousands of rounds is an exaggeration.
You make it sound like an extremely regular thing and it's not.
Full on sparring is rare and especially to the head.
Going beyond a prearranged level of control is frowned upon.
No it isn't,and it's something I've been involved in so know first hand
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
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Re: The start of the end?

Post by mol2 »

Anecdotally I would say concussions have become more common in recent years.

Bigger, faster players results in more energy in the impact. Hard to make individuals smaller or slower. Changes are needed. Union has become more like league (where stripping the ball in the tackle is not allowed) so the emphasis is then to have a high impact collision to dislodge the ball to effect a turnover.

The ruck has changed. Tackle occurs. Defenders launch themselves at speed past the ball like the start of a swimming race with a run up. Effectively missiles. Jackal gets hit whist trying to play the ball by one of the defenders one or both at risk of concussion.

Players entering the ruck must stay on feet unless pushed/pulled off their feet by the opposition. Once they have gone past the ball they cannot go more than one step beyond the ball until they are bound onto by their own player or an opponent. If they overrun the ball then they are to be deemed offside and penalised.
Ball has to be rucked to the back before being picked up.

If ball trapped -> Scrum.

Yes we will see more scrums but that's fine by me.
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