Rassie vs The World

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TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Tbh I think this type of incident has been coming for a while.

Given how subjective officiating rugby can be. There has been some very high profile incidents with ref's recently.

Just look at this forum on ref performances.

With so much video analysis now it's easy to pick up on mistakes, think I saw Squidge rugby state today something like 91% of rucks have something that can be penalised. That means a LOT of incidents are controversial in a game.

Recently we've seen the likes of Pat Lam semi threatening a ref on a players injury.

We've seen the controversial Welsh try when Farrell then started arguing with the ref about being given time to get back to position.

We've seen soooo many incidents where journalists ask about a ref's performance and a coach refuse to answer because they don't want to get in trouble (we know what that means)

We've seen our own club captain have words with a ref after a game.

The Lions themselves have skirted on the bounds of acceptanble and stepped over it re. the TMO.

Essentially we have a system where errors can be scrutinised in depth in super slow mo HD, a system where the ref's are seemingly not penalised for poor performances and people are starting to erode the "ref's word is final" subtly or directly.

We have an officiating crisis coming in our sport and unless they address it then it's likely only to get worse.
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JP14
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by JP14 »

TigerFeetSteve wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:10 pm Tbh I think this type of incident has been coming for a while.

Given how subjective officiating rugby can be. There has been some very high profile incidents with ref's recently.

Just look at this forum on ref performances.

With so much video analysis now it's easy to pick up on mistakes, think I saw Squidge rugby state today something like 91% of rucks have something that can be penalised. That means a LOT of incidents are controversial in a game.

Recently we've seen the likes of Pat Lam semi threatening a ref on a players injury.

We've seen the controversial Welsh try when Farrell then started arguing with the ref about being given time to get back to position.

We've seen soooo many incidents where journalists ask about a ref's performance and a coach refuse to answer because they don't want to get in trouble (we know what that means)

We've seen our own club captain have words with a ref after a game.

The Lions themselves have skirted on the bounds of acceptanble and stepped over it re. the TMO.

Essentially we have a system where errors can be scrutinised in depth in super slow mo HD, a system where the ref's are seemingly not penalised for poor performances and people are starting to erode the "ref's word is final" subtly or directly.

We have an officiating crisis coming in our sport and unless they address it then it's likely only to get worse.
Good post.
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mol2
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by mol2 »

The Lions were quite diplomatic on the appointment of a home TMO. Rules are what they are in terms of who is normally eligible to officiate, but these are not normal times and faced with no match or a home ref....

As it was I think he was genuinely impartial and perhaps that is what upset Erasmus? Did he think a profession official is going to consider being anything less than impartial, let alone under worldwide TV scrutiny?

Officials can and will make mistakes and some make them too frequently and some of those are howlers, but rarely are they intentional.

The England/Wales penalty one was a howler, the knock on was a minor error (with a big impact). The Australia:England world cup final scrum management was incompetent. As was the Tigers:Bristol scrum. Do any of them suggest partiality - not for me.

Cricket umpiring has benefited from the TMO in that errors can be corrected and this has improved the standard of umpiring - the umps get real time feedback and rapidly learn where they are misjudging impact, line and so on. It takes longer in rugby to understand who is dropping a scrum and to spot a prop driving across when you are looking at the scrum half and off side at the same time.
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Scott1 »

I feel for him on the Watson one though,it was shoulder hence yellow. That WASN'T a tough decision ,if we can't trust officials to get these easy decisions right then we are in trouble
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Old Hob
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Old Hob »

Scott1 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:43 am I feel for him on the Watson one though,it was shoulder hence yellow. That WASN'T a tough decision ,if we can't trust officials to get these easy decisions right then we are in trouble
This shows a complete lack of understanding about decision making - particularly under pressure. ALL experts make mistakes. Pilots (the most studied) and surgeons, however experienced, make mistakes. Usually they are of little consequence but occasionally they are fatal. That is why these types of groups have systems to compensate usually involving other people. Refs have assistant refs but I'm not sure that is enough in the hyper analysed world of TV rugby
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by jgriffin »

markharbtiger wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 5:44 pm I got bored about 5 mins into listening to this...and turned it off. Life is too short
Me also. He's attempting to influence the reffing - which IMO is different from complaining about Jonkers being TMO, as Jonkers is a mate of Erasmus, I'd have complained!!!
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Scott1 »

Old Hob wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:20 pm
Scott1 wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:43 am I feel for him on the Watson one though,it was shoulder hence yellow. That WASN'T a tough decision ,if we can't trust officials to get these easy decisions right then we are in trouble
This shows a complete lack of understanding about decision making - particularly under pressure. ALL experts make mistakes. Pilots (the most studied) and surgeons, however experienced, make mistakes. Usually they are of little consequence but occasionally they are fatal. That is why these types of groups have systems to compensate usually involving other people. Refs have assistant refs but I'm not sure that is enough in the hyper analysed world of TV rugby
Complete nonsense! The TMO had multiple angles and multiple stills. This wasn't a tough decision which we sometimes see and he didn't have the pressure of a plane full of passengers or he wasn't using a scalpel a millimetre away from potentially killing someone! It was very easy and he got it badly wrong! Above the horizontal and landed on shoulder =yellow,as simple as that!
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Old Hob
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Old Hob »

I was referring to refereeing in general.
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Scott1
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Scott1 »

Old Hob wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm I was referring to refereeing in general.
But this is a referred decision,not spur of the moment so where’s the pressure? He’s got multiple views and still butchered it,happens all the time. No excuses for me,although I do agree that the referee at times has a very good excuse to get it wrong as you said,TMO hasn’t for me
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by jgriffin »

Think Tigerfeet Steve summed it up well. It is in the nature of sport that ref decisions can be controversial, but rugby is so regulated its bound to happen frequently. At junior level, the 'homer' ref is a feature, but very few refs otherwise manifest bias (although there's a couple, both retired......Steve Walsh anyone?). It's a very difficult occupation, and at top level the reffing is so pressured. I think to equate the Lions questioning the TMO appointment to the Erasmus video is ingenuous, at least. The video is in a different league of whinge.
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Voyager1 »

After watching the video by Rassie Erasmus I can clearly understand this guy’s frustrations with current officiating guidelines and the non application of said guidelines and referee inconsistencies, especially in Test Matches such as these.

Many of us, and players especially, have at some time, been extremely frustrated by the inconsistencies of officials not only seemingly ignoring obvious infringements, but interpretations of infringements amongst themselves.

There comes a time when situations spill over like this, especially when international standings and reputations are at stake.

This video comes off the back of the widely accepted fact that South Africa did not get the rub of the green possibly due the pressures applied to the officials prior to the match by Warren Gatland.

I know a few South Africans and they are a very proud nation who have made great strides over the years in listening to the world and righting the wrongs that blighted their nations reputation, especially in the sporting arena. They were very respectful of world opinion and made huge changes to adapt to a level playing field among their athletes and root out any discrimination that tarnished their reputation.

They should be respected for that, on and off the field.

Gamesmanship will always happen before big matches, but to put pressure on match officials prior to games is wrong, mainly because every close decision made by an official is heavily scrutinised by the opposing team and fans wearing rose tinted spectacles.

World Rugby take a dim view of reactions such as these, and possibly Erasmus may be sanctioned, however they must also undertake to issue guidelines warning coaches not to intimidate match officials prior to matches, especially Test Matches which are themselves a tinder box.

As Erasmus said these were the views held by himself and not that of South African Rugby, which in itself is to be applauded.

I hope this forum respects the views of it’s participants.
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Offside »

The problem here is not a few words in the pitch or at a press conference but a 60 min video :censored:. I am a qualified ref and chosen not to continue after my son has moved to University and left the local club partly because of all the things I do (including surgery!) it is the hardest thing to keep even half of the participants happy with your performance. Rugby is a technical game and many of the laws are to dissuade outright cheating and keep players relatively safe so when they are penalised rather than “letting the boys play” depends very much on the context at the exact moment and freeze framing the video may provide a definitive decision on the transgression of the law but not the context within the game. SA have as much chance to play as the Lions. They did not take their chances and the Lions did. Fair result. Razzie try again tomorrow with a few new ideas, not the same ones that won the World Cup and the Lions can predict. Another 60 min video and there will be 2 teams and nobody to referee them.
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by JP14 »

Swings and roundabouts, South Africa got more than the rub of the green in the second test in 2009 so…
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Postiger2 »

Erasmus' cheating has done the trick here for SA.
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Re: Rassie vs The World

Post by Scott1 »

Postiger2 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:51 pm Erasmus' cheating has done the trick here for SA.
Behave,ref has got the big decisions spot on!
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