Place kick position & trigonometry

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Not a jock
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Place kick position & trigonometry

Post by Not a jock »

During a lull in the Olympics coverage of the 7s, I couldn't help wondering how far back from the try line the place kicker should place the ball / T to maximize the chances of a successful conversion. Cue laptop, Excel and some Maths that's been dormant for many years.

Assuming the kicker is not range limited and kicks straight (ie no curve or bend etc) then for every meter from the centre of the posts, the kicker should move out 1m from the try line in order to maximize the apparent angle between the posts. For example, 35m out wide, ie on the touch line, the kicker should move back 35m from the try line towards the half way line.

However, the total distance travelled over the ground for such a kick is 49.5m. Some or possibly many of the best kickers start to strain at such distances so timing and accuracy become adversely impacted. Another example, if the kicker has a range of 40m then at the touch line they'd have to kick 19m from the try line, not 35m, thereby making it a much more difficult kick.

So, do any kickers think about the Maths or do they figure it by trial and error during many hours of practice? I guess snooker players also have a practical application of trigonometry (and conservation of momentum etc but not the range limitation).
CJ
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Re: Place kick position & trigonometry

Post by CJ »

What an interesting post! I have no idea what the answer is but fascinating nonetheless.
johnthegriff
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Re: Place kick position & trigonometry

Post by johnthegriff »

The kicker is always range limited, these days with instep rather than straight toe on kicking there is always a curve to the kick and the ball is also affected by the wind and rain not to mention whether the kicker is left or right footed and from which touch line the kick is from. The only answer is experience and practice, hours of it, to waste the minute available indulging in trigonometry, Pythagoras or any other form of higher mathematics will be rather like this thread, pointless!
TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Place kick position & trigonometry

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

johnthegriff wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:17 pm The only answer is experience and practice, hours of it, to waste the minute available indulging in trigonometry, Pythagoras or any other form of higher mathematics will be rather like this thread, pointless!
The fact is though the kicker is doing rough trigonometry every time they set the ball down, yes it's basic, yes there's other variables like wind and which foot.

Yes it's done by eye based off practice and judgement at to what point on the line of tge kick gives the optimal range vs angle ratio (the distance increases proportional to the sine of the angle) doesn't take away the fact that kickers know after going so far back that the length of the kick starts dramatically increasing with very little improvement in angle. They DO do trig, but a basic version, they likely don't think about the angle or the distances, they probably just view it and have a "feel" for where to go based on hours of practice. In the same way you have a "feel" for how far to try and kick for touch, it's all trigonometry, just that like anything if in doubt practice it know what you can and can't do and let your brain do the trig subconsciously.
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Not a jock
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Re: Place kick position & trigonometry

Post by Not a jock »

johnthegriff wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:17 pm The kicker is always range limited, these days with instep rather than straight toe on kicking there is always a curve to the kick and the ball is also affected by the wind and rain not to mention whether the kicker is left or right footed and from which touch line the kick is from. The only answer is experience and practice, hours of it, to waste the minute available indulging in trigonometry, Pythagoras or any other form of higher mathematics will be rather like this thread, pointless!
I did state that I'd assumed a straight kick etc. Even with wind, rain, left or right footed kicker, left or right of the posts etc, there must still be an optimum position to place the tee to maximize the chances of a successful kick.

A more mathematic approach to the placing of the kicking tee could result in one of Clive Woodward's "Marginal Gains"? Last season in the GP there were over 50 losing bonus points awarded so more than a third of the matches were wone by seven points or less. A couple of missed kicks could have changed the result in many of the games.

Perhaps you poo-poo 'anoraks' taking a methodical approach to improving line out stats too. Ironic given a certain G Parling is still paying his mortgage through such attention to detail.
Old Hob
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Re: Place kick position & trigonometry

Post by Old Hob »

The processing of height, weight and trajectory to catch a thrown ball, even a perfectly round one lobbed gently, is daunting yet we do it with ease and unconsciously, yet few of us could manage that calculation consciously. I'm sure, however that a smart piece of kit on a laptop could show the best place for a placekick and could, no doubt, be sent out with the kicking tee.
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jgriffin
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Re: Place kick position & trigonometry

Post by jgriffin »

The old technique ('toe pecking', straight-on, etc) eliminated the natural curve variable, and actually made it easier to calculate the metric for wind deflection. The distances achieved by some of the kickers in those days were comparable, despite poorer materials (especially a wet case ball).
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