Tactical Kicking

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Ashurstwoodtiger
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Tactical Kicking

Post by Ashurstwoodtiger »

We see a lot of kicking for territory during games these days which 9 times out of 10 ends up with a free run back,if there is a poor kick chase. These kicks are normally down centre of field. Can anyone with more recent game experience tell me why, with the talents of Ford, Smith etc they seldom try for a bounce into touch thus negating possible run back and also gives the chance of a contested line out.
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SthrnTiger
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by SthrnTiger »

They do try to find grass it’s just the back 3 are so good at covering the field it’s hard to do, often need front foot ball. Ford is very good at the tactical kicking and saw that in action against Newcastle in the league where a few kicks bounced into touch.
Offside
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by Offside »

A very good question. Wasps just lost and if Robson had got his box kick out with a line out in Quins half rather than run back it may have saved them the game. The back three are good positionally but it is probably result is someone running the statistics and finding on average it gets better advantage. The problem I have with this use of stats is it is not the average team playing but the two teams on the pitch who may be better or worse at delivering the tactics than the average.
jgriffin
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by jgriffin »

Offside wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:15 pm A very good question. Wasps just lost and if Robson had got his box kick out with a line out in Quins half rather than run back it may have saved them the game. The back three are good positionally but it is probably result is someone running the statistics and finding on average it gets better advantage. The problem I have with this use of stats is it is not the average team playing but the two teams on the pitch who may be better or worse at delivering the tactics than the average.
This is the old 'ABs' kick argument. Alas, at some point, you have to have the ball to win.
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LE18
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by LE18 »

I mentioned this in another post, someone at Tigers, and England, needs to rethink this tactic, like I said we lose so many yards and miss tackles which make our defence look poor.
Ashurstwoodtiger
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by Ashurstwoodtiger »

Think we must be players from a bygone era where playing the game mattered foremost and tactics was a word found in the dictionary
sam16111986
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by sam16111986 »

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. Yes we remember the days when most teams played from their own half but not now with modern defence the he very risky.

Why do England kick long? Well that is because Eddie likes to play in the opposition half and backs the English defence (which is very good) and in particular those members of the pack adept at the breakdown to either force the opposition to kick back to us so we can counter or turn the ball over for us and bring about a scoring opportunity.

Why do Tigers kick long? Well that's slightly different. Borthwick does like to play the percentages so see above. However, we also seem to like kicking to use our fitness. We kick to force the opposition's pack to have run around the pitch and to tire them. We then back our fitness to take advantage of this. See the games Vs Ulster and Sale. We kick virtually everything for the first 25ish minutes and then towards the end of the first half start trying to play.
Ashurstwoodtiger
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by Ashurstwoodtiger »

I agree with the comments made but still doesn't really explain why teams don't try to tactically kick to touch more often surely the coaches must see some sense in a more varied approach. Added to the "new Ford aerial bomb" aka Gary Owen it might bring some results
sam16111986
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by sam16111986 »

Ashurstwoodtiger wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:53 pm I agree with the comments made but still doesn't really explain why teams don't try to tactically kick to touch more often surely the coaches must see some sense in a more varied approach. Added to the "new Ford aerial bomb" aka Gary Owen it might bring some results
Ideally they would but look to see how many players most teams have in the backfield these days. You've got to land the kick perfectly unless a player is out of position. Given how much we back our lineout under Borthwick do you not think we'd go for the kick to touch if it was available?
Ashurstwoodtiger
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by Ashurstwoodtiger »

I would have hoped that in our case that it would have been thought of if not tried at sometime. However no other team seems to try it either prefer kick tennis as the safer option
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by h's dad »

jgriffin wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:43 pm
Offside wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 5:15 pm A very good question. Wasps just lost and if Robson had got his box kick out with a line out in Quins half rather than run back it may have saved them the game. The back three are good positionally but it is probably result is someone running the statistics and finding on average it gets better advantage. The problem I have with this use of stats is it is not the average team playing but the two teams on the pitch who may be better or worse at delivering the tactics than the average.
This is the old 'ABs' kick argument. Alas, at some point, you have to have the ball to win.
To win, the ball has to be down at the other end of the pitch.
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Offside
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by Offside »

The ball also has to be in your possession at the other end and that will only happen if the opposition make a mistake and you have probably competed with the chase and forced it. Above average opposition and below average kick chase and the average advantage is not delivered on the pitch and that is why we have not had very good first halves recently! If our defence is not as good as England's then we cannot successfully use their tactics.

Spiral bombs are a different matter though 😁
h's dad
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by h's dad »

Offside wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:52 pm The ball also has to be in your possession at the other end and that will only happen if the opposition make a mistake and you have probably competed with the chase and forced it. Above average opposition and below average kick chase and the average advantage is not delivered on the pitch and that is why we have not had very good first halves recently! If our defence is not as good as England's then we cannot successfully use their tactics.

Spiral bombs are a different matter though 😁
Yes, it would be interesting to know by team how many yards teams make on average before conceding possession, and also how many yards are conceded before gaining possession. I'm sure clubs analyse this and I'm equally sure that it is closely guarded information.

Presumably there is some correlation with the RWC stat that teams averaged 3 phases per possession in 2019 (up from 1.4 in 1987).

Possession plus position equals points.
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TigerFeetSteve
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by TigerFeetSteve »

Percentage wise if you're always kicking towards touch, you'll find that a significantly higher number of kicks go out on the full because a smaller error makes a bigger difference. The risk therefore is the fact not only will it be their lineout but it'll also be deep in your own territory. I played a lot of fullback, i wasn't the best kicker and always preferred to run it back primarily, if I did kick back I always belted it straight up the middle as it's very easy to skew it wrongly.
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wellstiger
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Re: Tactical Kicking

Post by wellstiger »

Most teams have experienced full backs who can collect a high ball, position themselves to anticipate the down field kick and be able to return with equal measure.eg Hogg, Faff, Priestland etc.
The spiral bomb is an evolution of the kicking game which will be replicated by the likes of said mentioned.
Therefore advantage is only temp. I would like to see a kick into space either dropped shorter with effective chase or into touch row Z.
Nothing wrong with a little grubber every now and then to turn a big defence.
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