Itoje article

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JP14
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Re: Itoje article

Post by JP14 » Tue May 11, 2021 9:18 am

Old Hob has some goods, I suppose part of the problem is that independent schools have far more freedom dictating their curriculum then state schools do, which operate under a quite high degree of centralised control compared to what’s under other Western democracies.
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Re: Itoje article

Post by ourla » Tue May 11, 2021 9:31 am

Old Hob wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:15 am
State sector schools fail their pupils in so many ways that are easy to fix and do not require a lot of resources. Where are the confidence building debating/ public speaking exercises at primary level such as there are in prep schools? Boys of this age have to organise many of their own activities - again a confidence building activity absent in most primary schools. Why do secondary pupils wander home at any time from 2pm onwards when prep school children are still there at 4 or 5pm? If you have taught for more than a year or two then all your lesson plans are (should be) available and reusable with a little tweaking so claiming a lot of time is needed on this is fiction. State schools in general do not seem to expect very much of their pupils and so they don't get very much. When a state school does do something like this it's hailed as almost 'miraculous'. Others don't seem to follow and the initiatives rarely last before the whole enterprise slides back into the mud again. Of course, not all private schools are good but many are innovative, caring and produce pupils with a broad knowledge and understanding - like Itoje.
I can only talk from my own experience having two children (currently 16 and 13) having gone through state schools. I don't recognise many of things you say above. Certainly my children have never left secondary school before 3.30 in normal times and the school has optional extra-curricular activities available for example. All their three schools have certainly expect a lot from their pupils. Where they can't compete is with the facilities and resources for sports teams and coaches and of course in terms of kudos. Maybe the two are related.
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Re: Itoje article

Post by BFG » Tue May 11, 2021 10:07 am

Sports systems are mostly a reflection of what goes on in society.
It ain't what you know it's who you know.
I mean come on do you really think Mako got selected to start the final on scrummaging ability.
For those unconnected the best advice is to get to know the connected quickly and be prepared to say yes a lot, leave your opinions at home and try not to upset any kids who's parents are more influential than yours.
It happens in all sports.
By the end though most are cannon fodder.
A pal of mine was at Forest academy many years ago, best young midfielder in the entire set up, at the end of the season bizarrely he was dropped, then at the start of the next season a new midfielder turned up, the Managers son.
It's why England are mostly second best.

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Re: Itoje article

Post by jgriffin » Tue May 11, 2021 10:53 am

ourla wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:31 am
Old Hob wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 7:15 am
State sector schools fail their pupils in so many ways that are easy to fix and do not require a lot of resources. Where are the confidence building debating/ public speaking exercises at primary level such as there are in prep schools? Boys of this age have to organise many of their own activities - again a confidence building activity absent in most primary schools. Why do secondary pupils wander home at any time from 2pm onwards when prep school children are still there at 4 or 5pm? If you have taught for more than a year or two then all your lesson plans are (should be) available and reusable with a little tweaking so claiming a lot of time is needed on this is fiction. State schools in general do not seem to expect very much of their pupils and so they don't get very much. When a state school does do something like this it's hailed as almost 'miraculous'. Others don't seem to follow and the initiatives rarely last before the whole enterprise slides back into the mud again. Of course, not all private schools are good but many are innovative, caring and produce pupils with a broad knowledge and understanding - like Itoje.
I can only talk from my own experience having two children (currently 16 and 13) having gone through state schools. I don't recognise many of things you say above. Certainly my children have never left secondary school before 3.30 in normal times and the school has optional extra-curricular activities available for example. All their three schools have certainly expect a lot from their pupils. Where they can't compete is with the facilities and resources for sports teams and coaches and of course in terms of kudos. Maybe the two are related.
I still teach, and our curriculum is prescribed down to fine detail by OFQUAL and the Secretary of State (e.g. in economics, politics and sociology we are not allowed to use sources critical of capitalism), so freedom to set curriculum isn't there.
Most schools do not have an Old Boy who can donate £40k (as in an example I know); most schools are repairing because they can't rebuild; even academies, which were flush with the start-up money, are now struggling. COVID has further hammered budgets into the ground that were already miniscule.
Despite that, most schools appear to have major aspirations for their students, and indeed have debating societies as well as a wealth of after-school clubs. I have never encountered one that finishes at 2pm (unlike the continent where very early starts occur - but then the afternoon is creative or sports time) in a career that stretches back to Jan 1975 and includes independent, state grammar, state schools and FE. I have encountered state schools with good rugby teams BTW(West Bridgford was good in the late 90s).
Even Veseys deleted the rugby department after Feaunati left for NZ - money, money, money.
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Re: Itoje article

Post by DeadlyDunc » Tue May 11, 2021 12:35 pm

BFG wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:07 am
A pal of mine was at Forest academy many years ago, best young midfielder in the entire set up, at the end of the season bizarrely he was dropped, then at the start of the next season a new midfielder turned up, the Managers son.
It's why England are mostly second best.
Wow incredible!

If he was that good within a top level, well renowned youth set up like Forest had/have I imagine he was snapped up by a local rival immediately and continued to stand out (perhaps even more so if he had to take a step down) and got a pro contract?

Which teams did he end up playing for?

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Re: Itoje article

Post by Old Hob » Tue May 11, 2021 2:47 pm

As I said, it's not always about money - it's about attitude. I have lived in half a dozen counties in England and am now in Wales. I have seen secondary school children going home between 2 and 3pm in all of those places. One of the principal differences is expectation. From the age of 8 my grandson has been expected - without prompting- to read the board on his arrival at 08 30 and organise and arrange the material/ books he needs for the morning. That is what I'm talking about.
(It's not all good.)
PS I too am a qualified teacher
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Re: Itoje article

Post by BFG » Tue May 11, 2021 3:05 pm

DeadlyDunc wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:35 pm
BFG wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:07 am
A pal of mine was at Forest academy many years ago, best young midfielder in the entire set up, at the end of the season bizarrely he was dropped, then at the start of the next season a new midfielder turned up, the Managers son.
It's why England are mostly second best.
Wow incredible!

If he was that good within a top level, well renowned youth set up like Forest had/have I imagine he was snapped up by a local rival immediately and continued to stand out (perhaps even more so if he had to take a step down) and got a pro contract?

Which teams did he end up playing for?
It doesn't work like that.
You don't just walk into another set up in soccer.
There is a process and every club already has it's own young players.
Totally disrupted his development, it was a massive blow for him as a youth at the time that took some getting over, by the time he did it was too late.

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Re: Itoje article

Post by Scott1 » Tue May 11, 2021 3:10 pm

I’ve never ever seen any secondary school kids between 2 and 3. It’s usually a 3pm - 3:30 finish. You might see sixth formers around who do shortened days but that’s it.

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Re: Itoje article

Post by jgriffin » Tue May 11, 2021 3:43 pm

Old Hob wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:47 pm
As I said, it's not always about money - it's about attitude. I have lived in half a dozen counties in England and am now in Wales. I have seen secondary school children going home between 2 and 3pm in all of those places. One of the principal differences is expectation. From the age of 8 my grandson has been expected - without prompting- to read the board on his arrival at 08 30 and organise and arrange the material/ books he needs for the morning. That is what I'm talking about.
(It's not all good.
PS I too am a qualified teacher
If the kids are going home they've legged it. What I am talking about is the impossibility of provision. You are impugning a hell of a lot of conscientious and willing kids, with the attitude too prevalent these days of stereotyped dismissal. I won't comment further on this as I am getting quite angry. Scott, the floor is yours.
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Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.

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Re: Itoje article

Post by Scott1 » Tue May 11, 2021 3:47 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:43 pm
Old Hob wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:47 pm
As I said, it's not always about money - it's about attitude. I have lived in half a dozen counties in England and am now in Wales. I have seen secondary school children going home between 2 and 3pm in all of those places. One of the principal differences is expectation. From the age of 8 my grandson has been expected - without prompting- to read the board on his arrival at 08 30 and organise and arrange the material/ books he needs for the morning. That is what I'm talking about.
(It's not all good.)
PS I too am a qualified teacher
If the kids are going home they've legged it. What I am talking about is the impossibility of provision. You are impugning a hell of a lot of conscientious and willing kids, with the attitude too prevalent these days of stereotyped dismissal. I won't comment further on this as I am getting quite angry. Scott, the floor is yours.
I will end up saying something I regret so too am walking away! Like I said I was involved in it for 8 years so know exactly what happens and it’s ugly!

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