Montpellier’s Form - Challenge Cup Final chat

[anz3001]

Their defence was great, our attack generally isn’t. Fordy needs to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

[RichieB]

I realise this won’t be a widely-shared view, but Wiese is on the cusp of becoming a liability if he can’t keep his temper under control. I am acutely aware of what he has brought to the team and I don’t undervalue that. However, the way he scragged the Bath player when he wasn’t even involved in the initial incident was just dumb and was a huge factor in us losing the match.

He then got very close to another serious incident and was fortunate he didn’t connect to the Ulster player’s face. Red card territory even given the provocation.

If I were Head Coach, I’d be seriously considering the consequences of him not being able to keep his hands to himself. It’s a percentage call, do you risk playing him knowing what a massive positive difference he makes yet there is also a distinct possibility of a card which could jeopardise that entire game?

[anz3001]

I realise this won’t be a widely-shared view, but Wiese is on the cusp of becoming a liability if he can’t keep his temper under control. I am acutely aware of what he has brought to the team and I don’t undervalue that. However, the way he scragged the Bath player when he wasn’t even involved in the initial incident was just dumb and was a huge factor in us losing the match.

He then got very close to another serious incident and was fortunate he didn’t connect to the Ulster player’s face. Red card territory even given the provocation.

If I were Head Coach, I’d be seriously considering the consequences of him not being able to keep his hands to himself. It’s a percentage call, do you risk playing him knowing what a massive positive difference he makes yet there is also a distinct possibility of a card which could jeopardise that entire game?

Worse still, he’ll be a target for winding up. Quite the balancing act. Stunting the aggression may stunt the player.

[anz3001]

We have been through this with Genge too though.

[OakhamTiger32]

Their defence was great, our attack generally isn’t. Fordy needs to keep the scoreboard ticking over.

But also... Our defence is great, their attack wasn't anything special against Bath!

So a Final revolving around taking your chances and minimising the penalty count. They were kicking penalties from 5m inside their own half and had 3 separate kickers.. and then the WC winner Pollard came on to add to that list so we need to be patient, keep the scoreboard ticking over and take our chances.. oh and keep 15 on the field!

[OakhamTiger32]

I realise this won’t be a widely-shared view, but Wiese is on the cusp of becoming a liability if he can’t keep his temper under control. I am acutely aware of what he has brought to the team and I don’t undervalue that. However, the way he scragged the Bath player when he wasn’t even involved in the initial incident was just dumb and was a huge factor in us losing the match.

He then got very close to another serious incident and was fortunate he didn’t connect to the Ulster player’s face. Red card territory even given the provocation.

If I were Head Coach, I’d be seriously considering the consequences of him not being able to keep his hands to himself. It’s a percentage call, do you risk playing him knowing what a massive positive difference he makes yet there is also a distinct possibility of a card which could jeopardise that entire game?

I've been saying exactly this for weeks now.. completely agree. He got a needless red card against Wasps and cost Brink a try, was an inch away from another red card a few matches later, arguably cost us the game against Bath by getting involved in something that just didn't concern him and then was close to another incident against Ulster. He is a huge talent, will be part of an absolutely formidable SA back row (Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese) and is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for.... if.... he can sort out his discipline. He will be targeted now for sure.. he was against Bath and he was again against Ulster. Bath and Ulster started both of those incidents and got away unpunished yet he retaliates and is the one that got pinged. He needs to learn and learn fast. If not then I'd sooner we found another player who will stay on the field for the full 80

[sam16111986]

I realise this won’t be a widely-shared view, but Wiese is on the cusp of becoming a liability if he can’t keep his temper under control. I am acutely aware of what he has brought to the team and I don’t undervalue that. However, the way he scragged the Bath player when he wasn’t even involved in the initial incident was just dumb and was a huge factor in us losing the match.

He then got very close to another serious incident and was fortunate he didn’t connect to the Ulster player’s face. Red card territory even given the provocation.

If I were Head Coach, I’d be seriously considering the consequences of him not being able to keep his hands to himself. It’s a percentage call, do you risk playing him knowing what a massive positive difference he makes yet there is also a distinct possibility of a card which could jeopardise that entire game?

I've been saying exactly this for weeks now.. completely agree. He got a needless red card against Wasps and cost Brink a try, was an inch away from another red card a few matches later, arguably cost us the game against Bath by getting involved in something that just didn't concern him and then was close to another incident against Ulster. He is a huge talent, will be part of an absolutely formidable SA back row (Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese) and is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for.... if.... he can sort out his discipline. He will be targeted now for sure.. he was against Bath and he was again against Ulster. Bath and Ulster started both of those incidents and got away unpunished yet he retaliates and is the one that got pinged. He needs to learn and learn fast. If not then I'd sooner we found another player who will stay on the field for the full 80

Good luck with that. I suspect any 8 who has the Weise impact without the temper and aggression would be a marquee signing and nigh impossible for us to get hold of. We took Weise on as a rough diamond. Offensively he's one of the top players in the league and we've not had that from an 8 since, I dunno probably Corry.

As Cockers said about Gengey when he arrived, "it's easier to pull them out of a fight than to push them into one". I'm more than happy to run the risk of Weise whilst he adapts. Quite frankly we've needed a bit of nasty in the pack for some time. You'll note the Ulster lads kept their hands to themselves after Weise and the Tigers pack fronted up. Sometimes you need to be a little horrible. Weise always had an open hand in the Ulster incident so is unlikely to have ever gotten a red.

[Scott1]

I'm not sure, it was worse than Esterhuizens recent red when he pulled a player and pushed with his forearm simultaneously. Does the law say anything about an open or closed fist? That wasn't a push,that was an open handed strike. If that connected with the face he was gone imo.

[OakhamTiger32]

I realise this won’t be a widely-shared view, but Wiese is on the cusp of becoming a liability if he can’t keep his temper under control. I am acutely aware of what he has brought to the team and I don’t undervalue that. However, the way he scragged the Bath player when he wasn’t even involved in the initial incident was just dumb and was a huge factor in us losing the match.

He then got very close to another serious incident and was fortunate he didn’t connect to the Ulster player’s face. Red card territory even given the provocation.

If I were Head Coach, I’d be seriously considering the consequences of him not being able to keep his hands to himself. It’s a percentage call, do you risk playing him knowing what a massive positive difference he makes yet there is also a distinct possibility of a card which could jeopardise that entire game?

I've been saying exactly this for weeks now.. completely agree. He got a needless red card against Wasps and cost Brink a try, was an inch away from another red card a few matches later, arguably cost us the game against Bath by getting involved in something that just didn't concern him and then was close to another incident against Ulster. He is a huge talent, will be part of an absolutely formidable SA back row (Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese) and is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for.... if.... he can sort out his discipline. He will be targeted now for sure.. he was against Bath and he was again against Ulster. Bath and Ulster started both of those incidents and got away unpunished yet he retaliates and is the one that got pinged. He needs to learn and learn fast. If not then I'd sooner we found another player who will stay on the field for the full 80

Good luck with that. I suspect any 8 who has the Weise impact without the temper and aggression would be a marquee signing and nigh impossible for us to get hold of. We took Weise on as a rough diamond. Offensively he's one of the top players in the league and we've not had that from an 8 since, I dunno probably Corry.

As Cockers said about Gengey when he arrived, "it's easier to pull them out of a fight than to push them into one". I'm more than happy to run the risk of Weise whilst he adapts. Quite frankly we've needed a bit of nasty in the pack for some time. You'll note the Ulster lads kept their hands to themselves after Weise and the Tigers pack fronted up. Sometimes you need to be a little horrible. Weise always had an open hand in the Ulster incident so is unlikely to have ever gotten a red.

You chose to highlight that part of my post and not "He is a huge talent" or "is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for". I do agree with you in many respects and I was merely giving a balanced view of the pros and cons to this type of player. My point was not that I want us to find another 8 or that I think we could within the cap but that if he is going to miss half the games each season due to suspension and end up spending long periods in the sin bin then he will be a liability. I too am willing to give him time while he adapts and I sincerely hope he does. As I said.. he is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for and I really enjoy watching him. I just think "He needs to learn and learn fast"

[sam16111986]

I'm not sure, it was worse than Esterhuizens recent red when he pulled a player and pushed with his forearm simultaneously. Does the law saying anything about an open or closed fist? That wasn't a push,that was an open handed strike. If that connected with the face he was gone imo.

Yeah you're right if you make contact with the head it's pretty much irrelevant you are likely for red. It thought he was aiming for upper chest and a hard shove but if he'd missed he could have been in bother.

[sam16111986]

I've been saying exactly this for weeks now.. completely agree. He got a needless red card against Wasps and cost Brink a try, was an inch away from another red card a few matches later, arguably cost us the game against Bath by getting involved in something that just didn't concern him and then was close to another incident against Ulster. He is a huge talent, will be part of an absolutely formidable SA back row (Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese) and is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for.... if.... he can sort out his discipline. He will be targeted now for sure.. he was against Bath and he was again against Ulster. Bath and Ulster started both of those incidents and got away unpunished yet he retaliates and is the one that got pinged. He needs to learn and learn fast. If not then I'd sooner we found another player who will stay on the field for the full 80

Good luck with that. I suspect any 8 who has the Weise impact without the temper and aggression would be a marquee signing and nigh impossible for us to get hold of. We took Weise on as a rough diamond. Offensively he's one of the top players in the league and we've not had that from an 8 since, I dunno probably Corry.

As Cockers said about Gengey when he arrived, "it's easier to pull them out of a fight than to push them into one". I'm more than happy to run the risk of Weise whilst he adapts. Quite frankly we've needed a bit of nasty in the pack for some time. You'll note the Ulster lads kept their hands to themselves after Weise and the Tigers pack fronted up. Sometimes you need to be a little horrible. Weise always had an open hand in the Ulster incident so is unlikely to have ever gotten a red.

You chose to highlight that part of my post and not "He is a huge talent" or "is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for". I do agree with you in many respects and I was merely giving a balanced view of the pros and cons to this type of player. My point was not that I want us to find another 8 or that I think we could within the cap but that if he is going to miss half the games each season due to suspension and end up spending long periods in the sin bin then he will be a liability. I too am willing to give him time while he adapts and I sincerely hope he does. As I said.. he is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for and I really enjoy watching him. I just think "He needs to learn and learn fast"

My point was that there won't be a finished article available so any demands of learning fast or moving on are pointless. Given he's already signed a new deal I suspect we've committed to developing over at least the next two years into the international level player he so nearly is. We as a club are in a position now where we've got to develop players up as well as rebuild the way the team plays. France and Japan are the big money draws. Just as it's taken time to start turning the team's form around it will take time to move players development on a step.

[OakhamTiger32]

Good luck with that. I suspect any 8 who has the Weise impact without the temper and aggression would be a marquee signing and nigh impossible for us to get hold of. We took Weise on as a rough diamond. Offensively he's one of the top players in the league and we've not had that from an 8 since, I dunno probably Corry.

As Cockers said about Gengey when he arrived, "it's easier to pull them out of a fight than to push them into one". I'm more than happy to run the risk of Weise whilst he adapts. Quite frankly we've needed a bit of nasty in the pack for some time. You'll note the Ulster lads kept their hands to themselves after Weise and the Tigers pack fronted up. Sometimes you need to be a little horrible. Weise always had an open hand in the Ulster incident so is unlikely to have ever gotten a red.

You chose to highlight that part of my post and not "He is a huge talent" or "is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for". I do agree with you in many respects and I was merely giving a balanced view of the pros and cons to this type of player. My point was not that I want us to find another 8 or that I think we could within the cap but that if he is going to miss half the games each season due to suspension and end up spending long periods in the sin bin then he will be a liability. I too am willing to give him time while he adapts and I sincerely hope he does. As I said.. he is absolutely the type of 8 we have been looking for and I really enjoy watching him. I just think "He needs to learn and learn fast"

My point was that there won't be a finished article available so any demands of learning fast or moving on are pointless. Given he's already signed a new deal I suspect we've committed to developing over at least the next two years into the international level player he so nearly is. We as a club are in a position now where we've got to develop players up as well as rebuild the way the team plays. France and Japan are the big money draws. Just as it's taken time to start turning the team's form around it will take time to move players development on a step.

Fair point

[Scott1]

I'm not sure, it was worse than Esterhuizens recent red when he pulled a player and pushed with his forearm simultaneously. Does the law saying anything about an open or closed fist? That wasn't a push,that was an open handed strike. If that connected with the face he was gone imo.

Yeah you're right if you make contact with the head it's pretty much irrelevant you are likely for red. It thought he was aiming for upper chest and a hard shove but if he'd missed he could have been in bother.

Probably was chest but either way he's a horrible shot

[Old Hob]

I also wonder if Weise hasn't been worked out. He was breaking the first tackle every time when people tried to power tackle him. A passive tackle, though, falling backwards and pulling him with the tackler seems to work and take the sting out of his rampages. This risks being trapped on the wrong side but stops a line break. If his charging power is nullified, this surely alters the balance of the argument between 'powerful attacker vs penalty machine'.

[OakhamTiger32]

Just looking at the Top 14 table and it’s a strange one. Montpellier have a PD of 17 after 20 matches and the team above them, Bayonne have a PD of -203 after 22 matches! Bottom club Agen incidentally have a PD of -556!

Not sure what that shows.. perhaps that Montpellier are a much better side than their league position suggests and that many of their matches, whether won or lost have been very close.

Think we will be in for an arm wrestle at Twickenham but I reckon Borthwick will have us well prepared