7th May - Sale Away

[SthrnTiger]

We lost that game in the first 30 minutes. We have to start putting 80 minute or more consistent performances together

I think we are aware that our attack play isn't as sharp as it needs to be yet so we are tending to kick slot and move the opposition pack around. We take the abuse in the opening quarter knowing that the opposition pack is tiring. We then turn it up on 30 minutes backing our better fitness so that we can go up and a gear and the opposition then have to hold on. We then instantly freshen the pack up after half time so that we can increase the intensity whilst the opposition pack is gradually getting more tired knowing that most teams won't make changes until 55-60 minutes by which point we have hoped to swing the momentum and have the opposition on the back foot.

For those tactics to work you need two things in particular. The first is too squad fitness hence I suppose the signing of Walters and we can see how much fitter the squad is. The second is squad depth because of you are subbing quality off and putting inferior on then the intensity factor won't be there hence we have nights like last night where Borthwick is building up the squad experience so that he can keep working with those tactics but I'd imagine refine them further in the future.

Yes seems to be the plan. Not sure on the stats but its often quite clear the contrast between how the team plays in the first half versus the second.

[Crofty]

Well pretty much as expected, we were poor, sir was as bad, not really sure any of the fringe players put their hands up to threaten the usual suspects. We badly baldy need an attack coach of we're to harbour any ambitions of anything above 10th next season...

Whilst we do need an attack coach, this is a bit over the top. I think we’ll finish somewhere between 6-8th this season and we’re only going to improve going forward, not fall away to 10th.
Our first half was poor but it’s hard to play well when your 9&10 are having a shocker. Of the fringe/less established players, Henderson, Martin and Kelly certainly put their hands up. We don’t have a top second row. Henderson could well develop into that player.

So far this season, on the pitch in the prem, we've beaten Gloucester twice, Irish once (lost the other fixture), Falcons once (other fixture covided), Bath once (lost the other fixture), Worcester once (other fixture left to play), and Wasps once (other fixture left to play). Based on this I think 9th/10th is where we're going to be at the end of this season. Bear in mind that the team to come up is Sarries who have got to be odds on top 4 I'd say 10th is realistically where we'll stay unless we start converting visits to the opposition 22 into tries...

[ancientmariner]

It seems to me that, although we have recruited some top players and there are some very good youngsters coming through, as a team we're not much further forward than we were twelve months ago. The constant emphasis on kicking simply invites the opposition to run the ball back - and there are some very good backs in the Premiership. Back play for us has become something of a rarity - when the threequarters do try an attacking move they usually take the ball standing still - a schoolboy error.
We're still prone to untidy discipline verging on the panickey - witness Ben Young's pass backwards to nobody in particular when placed under pressure. I think some of the criticism aimed at Van Wyk is unfair - twice last night he saved certain tries over our own line with his speed and quick thinking. The other Van - JVP - clearly an excellent talent - needs to remember the basic job of a number nine is to provide the link between forwards and backs. Three times last night the ball was available at a ruck or maul, and he was very late arriving, inviting a turnover.

[JP14]

It seems to me that, although we have recruited some top players and there are some very good youngsters coming through, as a team we're not much further forward than we were twelve months ago. The constant emphasis on kicking simply invites the opposition to run the ball back - and there are some very good backs in the Premiership. Back play for us has become something of a rarity - when the threequarters do try an attacking move they usually take the ball standing still - a schoolboy error.
We're still prone to untidy discipline verging on the panickey - witness Ben Young's pass backwards to nobody in particular when placed under pressure. I think some of the criticism aimed at Van Wyk is unfair - twice last night he saved certain tries over our own line with his speed and quick thinking. The other Van - JVP - clearly an excellent talent - needs to remember the basic job of a number nine is to provide the link between forwards and backs. Three times last night the ball was available at a ruck or maul, and he was very late arriving, inviting a turnover.

In the instance of the maul, perhaps he was unable to arrive as the ref hadn't raised his arms to signal the lineout being over?

[ay2oh]

It seems to me that, although we have recruited some top players and there are some very good youngsters coming through, as a team we're not much further forward than we were twelve months ago. The constant emphasis on kicking simply invites the opposition to run the ball back - and there are some very good backs in the Premiership. Back play for us has become something of a rarity - when the threequarters do try an attacking move they usually take the ball standing still - a schoolboy error.
We're still prone to untidy discipline verging on the panickey - witness Ben Young's pass backwards to nobody in particular when placed under pressure. I think some of the criticism aimed at Van Wyk is unfair - twice last night he saved certain tries over our own line with his speed and quick thinking. The other Van - JVP - clearly an excellent talent - needs to remember the basic job of a number nine is to provide the link between forwards and backs. Three times last night the ball was available at a ruck or maul, and he was very late arriving, inviting a turnover.

If you think that we aren’t much further forward as a team then you are not paying attention. Our line out is unrecognisable from the shambles of last season. Our rolling maul is much improved and the defence is a lot tighter. We have two decent front rows and a back row which is one of the best in the premiership . Apart from that we are not much better

[Dr H Flashman MBE]

.... also, I suspect along with others here, I'm not a fan of Monye's crevice smoke blowing and, probably after he's been told to by the director, only giving Tigers begrudging praise!

He is shocking. I was raging at his biased commentary. Every word out of his mouth is pro anyone but Tigers. Him and Dalaglio commenting together makes me want to call the Samaritans. I understand Dalaglio being the way he is. I mean the bloke lost the captain’s armband to Englands greatest ever captain ...but Monye?? Not sure. Just annoying and BT need to address it.

[ourla]

It seems to me that, although we have recruited some top players and there are some very good youngsters coming through, as a team we're not much further forward than we were twelve months ago.

With all due respect I think that is a ridiculous statement.

I think some of the criticism aimed at Van Wyk is unfair - twice last night he saved certain tries over our own line with his speed and quick thinking.

One of them was as a result of him dropping the ball when were were attacking around their 22. I'd rather he'd held on to the ball and we'd got points rather than him having to save the day. It's up to Borthwick if he persists with him but I don't think he's done much impressively on game day so far. Unlike for example Murimurivalu and Potter for example.

[OakhamTiger32]

It seems to me that, although we have recruited some top players and there are some very good youngsters coming through, as a team we're not much further forward than we were twelve months ago.

I find this a very strange view. Disappointment at individual matches or players is one thing but not being able to see the huge progress we have made since this time last year is just unbelievable.

The squad - I have been immensely impressed by our strength in depth. We have achieved some impressive results this season (winning 10/13 home matches) and some with slightly surprising selections. A few of the younger lads have really stepped. Steward, JvP, Henderson, Martin, Heyes and Kelly have really impressed.

One thing is for certain, that our strength in depth is far greater than it has been for as long as I can remember. With Francois Van Wyk, Snyman and Van Staden coming in I am extremely confident about our squad moving forward. Perhaps another lock and 13 would be the icing on the cake but we are in good shape and a side of:

Van Wyk, Montoya, Cole, Henderson, Snyman, Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese, JvP, Burns, Nadolo, Scott, Moroni, Potter, Steward (Murimurivalu if Steward get's called up)

during the 6N window is extremely strong and so much better than in previous years.

Fitness. Aled Walters has done wonders for our fitness and this will only stand us in good stead next season. Our fitness is a country mile ahead of where it was the last few years.

Scrum and Lineout both huge assets as you might expect under SB but both are functioning very well. Add in the rolling maul and we have some very good platforms to build upon. We seem to demolish nearly every scrum we come up against and our lineout stats are nearly 100% every week.

Defence Ok so we are still losing matches and still conceding a few points but I have been very impressed with this aspect of our game. Ford seems to be doing a great job about getting back the dogged determined gritty Leicester Tigers defensive efforts and while it's not evident every single match there have been plenty of fantastic efforts from a defensive point of view. I am happy that we are moving in the right direction.

Attack Getting there slowly. A long way off the kind of attacking play displayed by Bristol today or the top 4 but this is early days. When we do try moves and put the ball through the hands we look pretty decent. The backs have scored a fair few tries over the last few games and we do have some great attacking potential.. just need to hang on to the ball!

Team Spirit The guys seem to have a much better togetherness about them and really seem to want to fight for the right to wear the shirt and we are pushing teams the full 80 minutes regardless of the score.. away to Exeter was a perfect example.

Discipline is a bit of a concern. Too many red and yellow cards this season but these are definitely getting less as we develop. No cards at all in the last match is a step in the right direction. Too many stupid penalties also seems to be a theme but again we are improving. Most games we concede less penalties than the opposition. When we keep the penalty count down as we have done a fair bit recently we are let down by too many players getting involved in unnecessary scuffles and too many dull decisions. Need to sort this out but it is improving.

Personally, and I think most posters will share in this view, I am happy with where we are. We are in much better shape than we were last season and have a lot more to be excited about. I think the disappointment for me is that we could have/should have won the Bath and Saints games and maybe got something last night and then we would be in the top 6 and about to go into a European Final.

After the last few seasons I'm sure most of us would have said 9th (4 points off 6th place) and a European Final at this stage would be a good return for Borthwick's first season in charge but we have left a fair few points out on the field (be it BPs or wins these last few weeks) and this is something that I'm sure will come with time and confidence. As Borthwick says we need to make winning the habit not losing.

We are far from the finished article, certainly aren’t where any of us, not least Borthwick wants us to be but surely you can accept we have made progress..

As for Kobus Van Wyk I feel that unless he steps it up he will find he’s a squad player as Nadolo, Potter and Muri have all outplayed him this season and in fact so has Porter. Van Wyk does have talent and could be a great option for us but he’s not quite at the races yet imho.

[Scott1]

It seems to me that, although we have recruited some top players and there are some very good youngsters coming through, as a team we're not much further forward than we were twelve months ago.

I find this a very strange view. Disappointment at individual matches or players is one thing but not being able to see the huge progress we have made since this time last year is just unbelievable.

The squad - I have been immensely impressed by our strength in depth. We have achieved some impressive results this season (winning 10/13 home matches) and some with slightly surprising selections. A few of the younger lads have really stepped. Steward, JvP, Henderson, Martin, Heyes and Kelly have really impressed.

One thing is for certain, that our strength in depth is far greater than it has been for as long as I can remember. With Francois Van Wyk, Snyman and Van Staden coming in I am extremely confident about our squad moving forward. Perhaps another lock and 13 would be the icing on the cake but we are in good shape and a side of:

Van Wyk, Montoya, Cole, Henderson, Snyman, Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese, JvP, Burns, Nadolo, Scott, Moroni, Potter, Steward (Murimurivalu if Steward get's called up)

during the 6N window is extremely strong and so much better than in previous years.

Fitness. Aled Walters has done wonders for our fitness and this will only stand us in good stead next season. Our fitness is a country mile ahead of where it was the last few years.

Scrum and Lineout both huge assets as you might expect under SB but both are functioning very well. Add in the rolling maul and we have some very good platforms to build upon. We seem to demolish nearly every scrum we come up against and our lineout stats are nearly 100% every week.

Defence Ok so we are still losing matches and still conceding a few points but I have been very impressed with this aspect of our game. Ford seems to be doing a great job about getting back the dogged determined gritty Leicester Tigers defensive efforts and while it's not evident every single match there have been plenty of fantastic efforts from a defensive point of view. I am happy that we are moving in the right direction.

Attack Getting there slowly. A long way off the kind of attacking play displayed by Bristol today or the top 4 but this is early days. When we do try moves and put the ball through the hands we look pretty decent. The backs have scored a fair few tries over the last few games and we do have some great attacking potential.. just need to hang on to the ball!

Team Spirit The guys seem to have a much better togetherness about them and really seem to want to fight for the right to wear the shirt and we are pushing teams the full 80 minutes regardless of the score.. away to Exeter was a perfect example.

Discipline is a bit of a concern. Too many red and yellow cards this season but these are definitely getting less as we develop. No cards at all in the last match is a step in the right direction. Too many stupid penalties also seems to be a theme but again we are improving. Most games we concede less penalties than the opposition. When we keep the penalty count down as we have done a fair bit recently we are let down by too many players getting involved in unnecessary scuffles and too many dull decisions. Need to sort this out but it is improving.

Personally, and I think most posters will share in this view, I am happy with where we are. We are in much better shape than we were last season and have a lot more to be excited about. I think the disappointment for me is that we could have/should have won the Bath and Saints games and maybe got something last night and then we would be in the top 6 and about to go into a European Final.

After the last few seasons I'm sure most of us would have said 9th (4 points off 6th place) and a European Final at this stage would be a good return for Borthwick's first season in charge but we have left a fair few points out on the field (be it BPs or wins these last few weeks) and this is something that I'm sure will come with time and confidence. As Borthwick says we need to make winning the habit not losing.

We are far from the finished article, certainly aren’t where any of us, not least Borthwick wants us to be but surely you can accept we have made progress..

As for Kobus Van Wyk I feel that unless he steps it up he will find he’s a squad player as Nadolo, Potter and Muri have all outplayed him this season and in fact so has Porter. Van Wyk does have talent and could be a great option for us but he’s not quite at the races yet imho.

Great post

[LE18]

Sorry I clicked too soon before adding my comment, to your excellent summary, my comment concerns our defence. I think that our man to man marking is very good, defence around rucks and mauls are intense and we show great fitness My one concern is when we kick the ball away, often too long and their players run it back at us. We often rush up, miss the tackle or fail to hold on and our players then get pulled out of position trying to make up for the missed rush. Because of this, the opponents generally make a vast amount of territory, usually with a mass of support, and we either make a last grasp tackle or they off load and we concede tries that way.
Solution kick less, kick to vacant ground, don't kick too far, don't rush into tackle, even in my day it was so easy to avoid a player rushing at you in space, if you are not going to get to the player, hold back slightly and see where he is going, then make the tackle.

[Offside]

Good last 2 posts.

I agree that we do look vulnerable in counterattack from kicks. The urge to make the tackle by the fastest chaser rather than form a defensive line if we will not get to the ball before it is caught does seem to cause problems. Sometimes we have got 3 runners up and cut off the attack well so it is really about positional awareness of other runner and communication between players. Without crowds that should have been easier. I think once crowds are back it may be harder to develop.

[wellstiger]

We are getting there. We are controlling what we can control (in general)
We are loosing tight games by the things that are beyond our control. These are poor decisions by the officiating teams.
I am fed up with hearing pundits and arm chair critics saying " its the picture you show to the ref" NO NO NO.
You should officiate what's in front of you fairly, firmly and without prejudice.

We may yet get the rub of the green one day, but I agree we need to be more pro active in a firm but respectful way by being a pest in the ear of Sir. We do not need to be marched back ten.
I respect what OTY has done for us and the way he has reinvented himself as a player. I do think we need a Johnno no nonsense
approach with Sir.

[DingDong]

Discipline is a bit of a concern. Too many red and yellow cards this season but these are definitely getting less as we develop. No cards at all in the last match is a step in the right direction. Too many stupid penalties also seems to be a theme but again we are improving. Most games we concede less penalties than the opposition. When we keep the penalty count down as we have done a fair bit recently we are let down by too many players getting involved in unnecessary scuffles and too many dull decisions. Need to sort this out but it is improving.

Great post OakhamTiger32, particularly this part which I feel has cost us a ridiculous amount of posession, territory, and especially points. Such basic errors which look more arrogant than accidental brainfarts, even in the red mist of defending your goal line you have to think more lucid than ever. Smarter thinking and better choices in this area will make a huge difference to the scoreline and eventually the result.

[Tiglon]

It seems to me that, although we have recruited some top players and there are some very good youngsters coming through, as a team we're not much further forward than we were twelve months ago.

I find this a very strange view. Disappointment at individual matches or players is one thing but not being able to see the huge progress we have made since this time last year is just unbelievable.

The squad - I have been immensely impressed by our strength in depth. We have achieved some impressive results this season (winning 10/13 home matches) and some with slightly surprising selections. A few of the younger lads have really stepped. Steward, JvP, Henderson, Martin, Heyes and Kelly have really impressed.

One thing is for certain, that our strength in depth is far greater than it has been for as long as I can remember. With Francois Van Wyk, Snyman and Van Staden coming in I am extremely confident about our squad moving forward. Perhaps another lock and 13 would be the icing on the cake but we are in good shape and a side of:

Van Wyk, Montoya, Cole, Henderson, Snyman, Liebenberg, Van Staden, Wiese, JvP, Burns, Nadolo, Scott, Moroni, Potter, Steward (Murimurivalu if Steward get's called up)

during the 6N window is extremely strong and so much better than in previous years.

Fitness. Aled Walters has done wonders for our fitness and this will only stand us in good stead next season. Our fitness is a country mile ahead of where it was the last few years.

Scrum and Lineout both huge assets as you might expect under SB but both are functioning very well. Add in the rolling maul and we have some very good platforms to build upon. We seem to demolish nearly every scrum we come up against and our lineout stats are nearly 100% every week.

Defence Ok so we are still losing matches and still conceding a few points but I have been very impressed with this aspect of our game. Ford seems to be doing a great job about getting back the dogged determined gritty Leicester Tigers defensive efforts and while it's not evident every single match there have been plenty of fantastic efforts from a defensive point of view. I am happy that we are moving in the right direction.

Attack Getting there slowly. A long way off the kind of attacking play displayed by Bristol today or the top 4 but this is early days. When we do try moves and put the ball through the hands we look pretty decent. The backs have scored a fair few tries over the last few games and we do have some great attacking potential.. just need to hang on to the ball!

Team Spirit The guys seem to have a much better togetherness about them and really seem to want to fight for the right to wear the shirt and we are pushing teams the full 80 minutes regardless of the score.. away to Exeter was a perfect example.

Discipline is a bit of a concern. Too many red and yellow cards this season but these are definitely getting less as we develop. No cards at all in the last match is a step in the right direction. Too many stupid penalties also seems to be a theme but again we are improving. Most games we concede less penalties than the opposition. When we keep the penalty count down as we have done a fair bit recently we are let down by too many players getting involved in unnecessary scuffles and too many dull decisions. Need to sort this out but it is improving.

Personally, and I think most posters will share in this view, I am happy with where we are. We are in much better shape than we were last season and have a lot more to be excited about. I think the disappointment for me is that we could have/should have won the Bath and Saints games and maybe got something last night and then we would be in the top 6 and about to go into a European Final.

After the last few seasons I'm sure most of us would have said 9th (4 points off 6th place) and a European Final at this stage would be a good return for Borthwick's first season in charge but we have left a fair few points out on the field (be it BPs or wins these last few weeks) and this is something that I'm sure will come with time and confidence. As Borthwick says we need to make winning the habit not losing.

We are far from the finished article, certainly aren’t where any of us, not least Borthwick wants us to be but surely you can accept we have made progress..

As for Kobus Van Wyk I feel that unless he steps it up he will find he’s a squad player as Nadolo, Potter and Muri have all outplayed him this season and in fact so has Porter. Van Wyk does have talent and could be a great option for us but he’s not quite at the races yet imho.

Spot on! Didn't Sale beat us 36-3 in the same fixture last season, before covid?

Look at our points difference in the previous 2 seasons compared to this. No, we're still not winning as many games as we like, but the margin is getting smaller and smaller. Progress is clearly there and I'm excited to see what this team can do next season.

[jgriffin]

TBH if you think we've made little progress, so be it. Kudos to OakhamTiger for a great post.