Rebuilding England By The Pound

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Rob18C
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by Rob18C »

Alandrin75 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:41 pm
TheTigerKing wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:18 pm Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.


Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.
I have read a few articles about Sam Simmonds and the best was talking about Simmonds for Chiefs and Simmonds for England. The belief in the article is Chiefs build there back row and to an extent second row around Simmonds. With Curry and Underhill packing down as flankers with Sam it is thought that the back row would be under powered in the set piece whereas Chiefs play some sizeable lumps in the 6 and 7 shirts.

Also from a ball carrying perspective I saw a lot of Crofty in Simmonds on Saturday, with him standing out in the backs or out on the wing where he can use his base and power to blast through backs challenges. England need a power based ball carrying threat which is what Billy is supposed to do.

At Englands best we have three principle ball carriers in Billy, Mako and Manu, with secondary carriers in Sinckler, Maro and AN Other lock. By using these they tie up defenses and Curry and Underhill are there to create quick ball to release either the next runner or to engage the backs. With Simmonds in the team we would lose some of this and would require a whole new way to play which I am not sure Eddie is comfortable with.
completely agree with this. unfortunately it isn't just as simple as making a straight swap between B Vunipola and Simmonds as we would need to change our whole game plan to allow for this.

Similarly with Marcus Smith. Quins play a completely different game to England and don't think he would suit the physical game we are trying to play, whereas he is more of an attacking FH who wants to run.

It is a bit of a shame that some of the most on form premiership players in Simmonds and Smith are unlikely to play for England any time soon, but our best performances in the last few years have been when we have been extremely physical, especially in defence and subsequently the opposition has had no chance to play (RWC v N.Zealand and away to Ireland 2019).
BFG
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by BFG »

There are lots of options for England to find good form and balance.
Ted Hill and James Chisholm are more than capable at 6.
England don't want to be trying to fit names in again at the cost of poor playing form and balance in my opinion.
Hill/Chisholm, Underhill/Curry, Dombrandt/Simmonds.
mol2
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by mol2 »

I think picking Simmonds might mean bringing someone else into the back row to give more bulk in place of Underhill. (The way Curry is playing a crowbar and dynamite would be required to shift him from the back row)

Underhill tackles anything that moves which is his strong point so again if fit hard to justify dropping so for me Underhill misses out and they need to look for another big, ball carrying 8 be that Dombrant or Nathan Hughes who seems to have his mojo back.

I think there is scope for someone to come in at lock. Hill has looked out of place and I'm just not convinced Attwood is dynamic enough. In a year or two that could be George Martin but perhaps a bit soon at this time?

Bench tight head is an issue. Loose head too. Time to move on from Macko which leaves Genge and who - Marler is getting on and not the most dynamic of loose heads.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by TheTigerKing »

westwinds31 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:52 pm
TheTigerKing wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:18 pm Ford and Youngs have been criticised but I actually think both performed well in the 6N outside of Ford having a stinker yesterday.

The obvious picks for me are:

Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.
Lock: Itoje
Front Row, Sinckler and one of LCD or George

Backs. Watson


That leaves 8 places up for grabs in starting line up.

Personally id stick with Youngs and Ford at 9/10. Give Smith some game time from the bench.

Farrell should be in the squad as a centre. But not a guaranteed starter.

Steward and De Glanville should be brought into the squad as 15 options. Both better than Daly or Malins IMO.

Slade can't defend so he's out for me.

We need to bring some pace and power in at wing and centre. I'd argue May shouldn't be an automatic starter given his form but keeps a squad place.

Launchbury is a clear pick of healthy and a good combination with Itoje.

Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.
Slade can’t defend...... :smt017
He's missed an awful lot of tackles of late. Really being targeted.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by TheTigerKing »

Alandrin75 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:41 pm
TheTigerKing wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:18 pm Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.


Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.
I have read a few articles about Sam Simmonds and the best was talking about Simmonds for Chiefs and Simmonds for England. The belief in the article is Chiefs build there back row and to an extent second row around Simmonds. With Curry and Underhill packing down as flankers with Sam it is thought that the back row would be under powered in the set piece whereas Chiefs play some sizeable lumps in the 6 and 7 shirts.

Also from a ball carrying perspective I saw a lot of Crofty in Simmonds on Saturday, with him standing out in the backs or out on the wing where he can use his base and power to blast through backs challenges. England need a power based ball carrying threat which is what Billy is supposed to do.

At Englands best we have three principle ball carriers in Billy, Mako and Manu, with secondary carriers in Sinckler, Maro and AN Other lock. By using these they tie up defenses and Curry and Underhill are there to create quick ball to release either the next runner or to engage the backs. With Simmonds in the team we would lose some of this and would require a whole new way to play which I am not sure Eddie is comfortable with.
I agree that's clearly the reason he's been overlooked.

But I would pick talent and a pack including George/LCD, Sinckler, Itoje, Curry, Simmonds and Underhill has so much quality that you pick it and work with it. Simmonds makes ground and puts defenses on their heels, just in a different way.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by LE18 »

TheTigerKing wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:36 pm
westwinds31 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:52 pm
TheTigerKing wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:18 pm Ford and Youngs have been criticised but I actually think both performed well in the 6N outside of Ford having a stinker yesterday.

The obvious picks for me are:

Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.
Lock: Itoje
Front Row, Sinckler and one of LCD or George

Backs. Watson


That leaves 8 places up for grabs in starting line up.

Personally id stick with Youngs and Ford at 9/10. Give Smith some game time from the bench.

Farrell should be in the squad as a centre. But not a guaranteed starter.

Steward and De Glanville should be brought into the squad as 15 options. Both better than Daly or Malins IMO.

Slade can't defend so he's out for me.

We need to bring some pace and power in at wing and centre. I'd argue May shouldn't be an automatic starter given his form but keeps a squad place.

Launchbury is a clear pick of healthy and a good combination with Itoje.

Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.
Slade can’t defend...... :smt017
He's missed an awful lot of tackles of late. Really being targeted.
Who are you referring to?
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by ads »

LE18 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:41 pm
TheTigerKing wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:36 pm
westwinds31 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:52 pm

Slade can’t defend...... :smt017
He's missed an awful lot of tackles of late. Really being targeted.
Who are you referring to?
Probably Slade....
Traveller
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by Traveller »

TheTigerKing wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:38 pm
Alandrin75 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:41 pm
TheTigerKing wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:18 pm Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.


Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.
I have read a few articles about Sam Simmonds and the best was talking about Simmonds for Chiefs and Simmonds for England. The belief in the article is Chiefs build there back row and to an extent second row around Simmonds. With Curry and Underhill packing down as flankers with Sam it is thought that the back row would be under powered in the set piece whereas Chiefs play some sizeable lumps in the 6 and 7 shirts.

Also from a ball carrying perspective I saw a lot of Crofty in Simmonds on Saturday, with him standing out in the backs or out on the wing where he can use his base and power to blast through backs challenges. England need a power based ball carrying threat which is what Billy is supposed to do.

At Englands best we have three principle ball carriers in Billy, Mako and Manu, with secondary carriers in Sinckler, Maro and AN Other lock. By using these they tie up defenses and Curry and Underhill are there to create quick ball to release either the next runner or to engage the backs. With Simmonds in the team we would lose some of this and would require a whole new way to play which I am not sure Eddie is comfortable with.
I agree that's clearly the reason he's been overlooked.

But I would pick talent and a pack including George/LCD, Sinckler, Itoje, Curry, Simmonds and Underhill has so much quality that you pick it and work with it. Simmonds makes ground and puts defenses on their heels, just in a different way.
I agree with all of that. the only problem is that Billy Vunipola has not actually played very well for quite a while now, even at by his own admission, and unlike every other position George / LCD - Marler / Vuniploa / various 2nd rows - there isn't anything even vaguely like a like for like replacement in the squad and so he seems to be selected no matter what happens, no matter how he plays. For me he has never been the same since his second (or was it third arm fracture). But what do I know.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by Traveller »

TheTigerKing wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:38 pm
Alandrin75 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:41 pm
TheTigerKing wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 5:18 pm Back row of Underhill, Curry and Simmonds.


Main thing, more power in the backs, Simmonds at 8, a proper 15 and let them play what's infront of them. We have some genuinely world class forwards in Itoje, Curry, Underhill and Simmonds, let's build around that.
I have read a few articles about Sam Simmonds and the best was talking about Simmonds for Chiefs and Simmonds for England. The belief in the article is Chiefs build there back row and to an extent second row around Simmonds. With Curry and Underhill packing down as flankers with Sam it is thought that the back row would be under powered in the set piece whereas Chiefs play some sizeable lumps in the 6 and 7 shirts.

Also from a ball carrying perspective I saw a lot of Crofty in Simmonds on Saturday, with him standing out in the backs or out on the wing where he can use his base and power to blast through backs challenges. England need a power based ball carrying threat which is what Billy is supposed to do.

At Englands best we have three principle ball carriers in Billy, Mako and Manu, with secondary carriers in Sinckler, Maro and AN Other lock. By using these they tie up defenses and Curry and Underhill are there to create quick ball to release either the next runner or to engage the backs. With Simmonds in the team we would lose some of this and would require a whole new way to play which I am not sure Eddie is comfortable with.
I agree that's clearly the reason he's been overlooked.

But I would pick talent and a pack including George/LCD, Sinckler, Itoje, Curry, Simmonds and Underhill has so much quality that you pick it and work with it. Simmonds makes ground and puts defenses on their heels, just in a different way.
I agree with all of that. the only problem is that Billy Vunipola has not actually played very well for quite a while now, even at by his own admission, and unlike every other position George / LCD - Marler / Vuniploa / various 2nd rows - there isn't anything even vaguely like a like for like replacement in the squad and so he seems to be selected no matter what happens, no matter how he plays. For me he has never been the same since his second (or was it third arm fracture). But what do I know.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by mol2 »

Apparently Jones has been likened to Trump.

This means England’s defeats are “Fake news” and are really the 6N champions.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by BengalTiger »

It is the rigidity of Jones that comes out in the way the team play, the French showed in the autumn that they have a block of 40 players that can rotate in or out of the team and they still play like France and can beat anyone with a fair wind (or ref)

England by comparison have 13-14 players who are nailed on to start as long as they have 25 good legs between them.

We have a very deep pool of players but only a few get more than a passing chance, other put a long string of poor performances and get still get shoehorned into the team regardless, none of the current team are bad players (even Daly has his moments) but they are badly coached and badly prepared and some are just past it.
At the world cup Jones picked the wrong team and prepared them badly, the same with the 6N, so this is nothing new.
So regardless of who is in the team, if the coach is a duffer then the wheels will come off as soon as there is pressure
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by Ian Cant »

There is plenty of talent in the present squad but in my mind the following has been the problem:
1) Jones is a good coach but his teams in the last 2 years have lacked energy on the match day except when they’ve not been expected to win.
This may be due to old fashioned training as from what has been said by ex players and some of the press is they are too brutal!
2) Jones hasn’t really put pressure on his current players by putting players in great club form in the side.
3) Baxter has built his conquering side by building a team that has an excellent pack, great fitness and skilful side. Joe Simmonds has developed into an Andy Goode type fly half; good pass, accurate kicking, can break the line and improved tackler, but not likely to get noticed by Jones.
Baxter also admitted ages ago he modelled his squad on the one Tigers had in our pomp: two very good players for every position but also the confidence for his team to play ‘ heads up” rugby.
4) Players who come into the England squad don’t improve: Ellis is an example as he isn’t the player he was 2 years ago: he needs to play regularly and the same goes for Billy V!
5) Stop the mind games Jones: they aren’t working.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by Tiglon »

As Eddie points out, he only has a certain pool of players to choose from and he can't change that. It's not like coaching a club where you have many more options in compiling your squad to fit in with your gameplan. Therefore, the gameplan needs to fit the best players that you have, not the opposite.

England seem to have a gameplan built, in part, around Billy V and Manu at their best. I doubt Manu will ever play for England again, sadly, and Billy is just completely out of form I wouldn't bet on him getting back to his best. Those 2 have been a huge part of our power game and are a major problem for Eddie. He has always seemed confused in his attempts to select a midfield without Manu and, for me at least, the current one simply does not work. With Ford and Farrell, you need a big threat at 13, whether with pace, footwork or power. Slade isn't any of those at international level. The only way to compensate for all that is to have your back 3 involved and running lines off 10/12/13 to provide the threat. England fail to do this, and even if they did there is so little danger from 10/12/13 that there is zero space available for Daly, May and Watson because the defenders have nothing to worry about on the inside - all players who thrive on a bit of space, not busting through double tackles.

This has been compensated for on many occasions by the incredible dominance of the pack. If you are on the front foot and the opposition on the back foot then a lot of space is created and the distribution of Ford and Farrell puts the back 3 and even Slade into space. Without that complete dominance or a back line that can create it's own momentum it falls apart.

So, either the gameplan needs to change or the personnel need to be tweaked to achieve the gameplan via a slightly different route. With Underhill back, you don't need Billy's carrying quite so much because you can create momentum and get on the front foot with defence instead. Launchbury back in the 2nd row and Lawes on the bench make a big difference for me - Hill and Ewels aren't up to it. Hughes is in form if you insist on having a big 8, Sam Simmonds if you want a bit more mobility. Barbeary if you want to be bold and look to the future.

I don't see any potential downside with Marcus Smith. I've watched most of the Quins games over the last couple of months and he has been utterly outstanding. Kicking from the tee has been flawless, from the hand inventive and accurate. He's brilliant at spotting a gap when it's in front of him, his hands are top drawer and his defence is on a par with Ford's. He brings an attacking threat, the defence can't ignore him.

TL:DR
Playing 2 distributors at 10 and 12 only works if 13 is a threat with ball in hand, and/or the pack are completely dominant. Playing 3 distributors at 10, 12 and 13 only works if the pack are even more completely dominant.
Bring in Marcus Smith for Ford, Alfie Barbeary for Billy V and Lawrence for Farrell. All of a sudden you have more of everything you want and less of nothing other than experience. Plus you'd probably get a huge reaction from the likes of Billy which might push him back to his best.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by Leicestertinytiger »

All the pundits rave about Lawrence and Odogwu but I’m surprised Marchant doesn’t get mentioned more. For me he’s better than both, pacey attacker in the Joseph mould but also reads the game very well and can lead the defence. Can also cover wing and is great under the high ball.

Devoto has always looked good too at 12, plays club rugby with Slade. It’s not like we haven’t got any talented centres, Jones just doesn’t pick them.
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Re: Rebuilding England By The Pound

Post by JP14 »

BFG wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:00 am There are lots of options for England to find good form and balance.
Ted Hill and James Chisholm are more than capable at 6.
England don't want to be trying to fit names in again at the cost of poor playing form and balance in my opinion.
Hill/Chisholm, Underhill/Curry, Dombrandt/Simmonds.
Eddie Jones' obsession with a power based game has narrowed his vision too much, the Number 8 doesn't have to a big ballcarrier. For example, France's Greg Aldritt beats the gainline by running smart lines and a good leg drive. Even with Wales, Taulupe Faletau isn't going to run over most back-rowers and centres but has the work-rate and skillset and is really getting back to his pre-2017 form.

If England select Curry at 6 he has now developed the ball-carrying ability to get over the gainline which someone like Dombrandt and Simmonds to play their natural game at 8.
Formerly of Burbaaage (not Inkleh), now up north at uni
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