Rebuilding England By The Pound

[RichieB]

After the disappointment of the RWC final v SA and the backwards progress shown during this 6N, I am thinking of what I would be doing were I Head Coach.

Firstly, acknowledge some things have to change in spite of the temptation to stick with the existing playing squad. Secondly,I’d get the coaching staff together in a room for the day and get a spreadsheet out on the projector with 15 rows (one for each position) and 4 or 5 columns (number of players in each position).

So against each number put in a name of a player who is a shoe-in. Someone like Itoje at lock, May and Watson on the wings, Curry at flanker. Do not put in anyone not 100% convinced about and in that I personally include YBY, Slade, Hill, Farrell.

Once you have the very best, hopefully there is the core of a team. Bearing in mind playing styles, the need for specialist skills such as goal-kicking, then start to fill the gaps but making sure the choice is from the entire pool of talent available. It could be that the 4th or 5th choice in each position is a youngster such as George Martin, who in spite of my admiration for him, I struggle to see him as one of the top 4 in his position in England.

It isn’t easy and it is very often a subjective matter, but a whole review is needed of the entire squad. If EJ and his team don’t take some sort of positive action I’m afraid I’m struggling to back him.

Any ideas?

[Tigerbeat]

Jones took a gamble on playing the Saracens players who would under normal circumstances get in to the team. The Covid bubble has been a barrier to making changes during the course of the competition. I expect that lessons will be learned and will be very surprised if Eddie Jones gets the sack. The autumn internationals will have more significance.

[Crofty]

The AIs and Summer Tour (should it go ahead) are likely to be the real test of Jones' mettle, especially if Gatland takes the opportunity this 6N gives him to take only a token English contingent. To my mind Jones should be using the summer for youngsters and the Autumn to blend the stand outs among them with some of the more established players that didn't completely embarras themselves this spring.

Also, it's worth remembering we had as big a wobble a year later in the last WC cycle and without the extenuating circumstance of a Covid bubble and empty stadia.

[Scott1]

I personally believe Jones has run his course but don’t forget he has already rebuilt and made us the worlds best team when he dropped the likes of Cole,Hartley,Wood,Robshaw,Haskell etc so he’s proved he can do it. Major decisions needed at 10,12,13,15 and he has to start using form players too as well as changing the gameplan which is too restricting!

[Traveller]

It’s interesting. I am a great fan of Jones, but this is new territory for him i.e. being in charge of the same team over 2 World Cup cycles. I agree with everything that has been said about the covid issue and the Saracens contingent.

He is criticised for remaining too loyal to players, yet twelve of the Ireland squad that played against England yesterday were in the squad that beat us in 2018 (it would have been thirteen if Ryan had been available), in contrast to just nine England players. Not saying that’s good or bad. Just that a narrative develops sometimes that isn’t back up by the facts.

The statistics suggest he is perfectly willing to change things. Eleven of the 2018 England 6N squad never made another England squad including Hartley, Robshaw, Haskell, Te’o, Care, Brown, Wigglesworth. Hughes didn’t make the WC Squad. The triumvirate of Curry, Vunipola, Underhill came post the 2018 6N. So, on that basis, and taking EJ at his word, that there needs to be some churn. It would be interesting to know which six regulars you’d be asking to ‘come in your time is up’?

[jgriffin]

Just sayin, anyone suggesting dropping Ford for Simmonds or Smith (or indeed any other English 10) ain't watching them. The problems in the backs are 12,13,15.

[RichieB]

Just sayin, anyone suggesting dropping Ford for Simmonds or Smith (or indeed any other English 10) ain't watching them. The problems in the backs are 12,13,15.

I think that’s the situation we are in. Scrum half and fly half are critical positions tactically so the combinations need to work. YBY and Ford didn’t do well yesterday against the Irish - I know you can blame the coach for insisting on sticking to the set script. Ford would be my personal first choice 10 and he can kick. I don’t know enough about other options in the available talent pool to complete this entire exercise by myself.

I’m not particularly impressed (on recent performances) by Mako, Daly, Farrell, Billy V and others. I mean some of them might make it in as 2nd, 3rd choice but would like to think we have better out there.

[westwinds31]

Let’s assume Jones is in post until after the 2023 World Cup. He’s got time to turn things around and it’s almost like the next squad has to be THE one to take us through to France. I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes. Players who could feature who aren’t currently include: Simmonds (x2), Dombrandt, Smith...at least the ones that the sofa brigade are crying out for, and some ex players. My question would be, if we give Marcus Smith a crack, the style of play has to change. Loads of questions arise, do Youngs/Robson compliment Smith ? What about the centres ? Can they play the Quins way ? After all, that’s what has got Smith noticed, this all court running game. If Simmonds comes in at 8, what does he need at 6&7 ? Do we then need a Lawes type 6 and a fetcher ....like Curry or Underhill ? It’s all about combinations, not just slotting Simmonds in and saying “Do what you do for Exeter”. It could upset the whole balance. That said it’s not working now, so changes are needed.

Of note, players also in the mix in my view are Furbank (actually very good), Dunn at Bath and Barbeary at Wasps (definitely) and players to come back...Tuilagi, Nowell and Cockanasiga.

How you factor everyone in is beyond me. Eddie sees the players and knows their personalities so should have the best insight as to whether players can cut it at International level.

We have issues at prop I think. Are our squad props good enough to take on the best ? Not at the moment ? Also at 9. Ben is frustrating, brilliant vs France but not so good yesterday.Good luck Eddie !

For starters, Itoje skipper and then build it around him.

[Scott1]

I do believe even though that Eddie did himself no favours with his selections and tactics this 6N he didn’t have the best of luck with injuries. Lawes and Launchbury were both out and both Ewels and Hill aren’t good enough plus Underhill is world class in an England shirt and his replacement Wilson is past his best at this level. Nowell is brilliant in traffic too and is a huge loss. Mako was poor and Genge didn’t put his hand up, watching Obano lately I feel Ellis could be in trouble.
My biggest gripe though was ditching the new style of MF for the Italy game. Why?! No disrespect but you would beat Italy with any MF so why not bed in a new style? He should’ve stuck with Farrell,Lawrence,Slade or even gone Ford,Lawrence,Odogwu. It brought up bad memories of Lancaster at the RWC when he did the same and bottled it after the Fiji game,even though we had won that!

[sam16111986]

I hope Eddie takes the summer tour as a development tour. There will be a number away with the Lions so it's easy for him to get away with saying he's only taking players that didn't play in both the ANC and 6N. Those players that did are being given the summer offer unless in Lions duty.

He can then pick the form Prem players and most talented youngsters. Create lots of competition and give himself options for the Autumn. Competition drives players on because if you don't perform you get dropped.

I'm Westwinds but they'd have to be a massive injury crisis for me to want to see Furbank back in England colours. I think it's only a short space of time before Freeman overtakes him at Saints.

[Scott1]

Steward has to go the summer tour for me,if there is one. Martin too. Heyes maybe? Any more we can think of? Too early for JVP?

[TigerFeetSteve]

Steward has to go the summer tour for me,if there is one. Martin too. Heyes maybe? Any more we can think of? Too early for JVP?

Reffell, but that's more so the Welsh don't nick him from Tigers...

[Scott1]

Steward has to go the summer tour for me,if there is one. Martin too. Heyes maybe? Any more we can think of? Too early for JVP?

Reffell, but that's more so the Welsh don't nick him from Tigers...

Can he play for the full England side if he’s played for Welsh U20?

[TigerFeetSteve]

Steward has to go the summer tour for me,if there is one. Martin too. Heyes maybe? Any more we can think of? Too early for JVP?

Reffell, but that's more so the Welsh don't nick him from Tigers...

Can he play for the full England side if he’s played for Welsh U20?

Yes only senior caps count I believe. Pretty sure he counts as EQP.

[westwinds31]

I do believe even though that Eddie did himself no favours with his selections and tactics this 6N he didn’t have the best of luck with injuries. Lawes and Launchbury were both out and both Ewels and Hill aren’t good enough plus Underhill is world class in an England shirt and his replacement Wilson is past his best at this level. Nowell is brilliant in traffic too and is a huge loss. Mako was poor and Genge didn’t put his hand up, watching Obano lately I feel Ellis could be in trouble.
My biggest gripe though was ditching the new style of MF for the Italy game. Why?! No disrespect but you would beat Italy with any MF so why not bed in a new style? He should’ve stuck with Farrell,Lawrence,Slade or even gone Ford,Lawrence,Odogwu. It brought up bad memories of Lancaster at the RWC when he did the same and bottled it after the Fiji game,even though we had won that!

Agree Hill has been found out at his level, Ewels slightly better but Launchbury has to come in to partner Itoje. Lawrence deserves another go but if Manu is fit then Lawrence doesn’t make it. Odogwu as in international? Not sure. Props are a worry.