Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

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TigerBoy1880
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:41 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
An interesting interview, the obsession with hard work is mildly annoying, playing rugby is their job, professional sport is a profession where your workers can not be putting in the graft, yet you rarely sack them as you would in the real world, the boss gets the sack, I expect anyone with a job to work hard, not just the employees of my Rugby Team. Just because at one point we had a fantastic set of forwards & dominated nearly ever other team that isn't necessarily what all Tigers Supporters see as our DNA & I am not entirely convinced our HC realises that.
But credit for doing the Interview as he obviously isn't comfortable with that aspect of his role, but there were parts where the mask slipped a little with his interactions with Bondi, it was a shame laddergate wasn't bought up.
What do you see as our DNA then?

Cagey Tiger
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by Cagey Tiger » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:48 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
An interesting interview, the obsession with hard work is mildly annoying, playing rugby is their job, professional sport is a profession where your workers can not be putting in the graft, yet you rarely sack them as you would in the real world, the boss gets the sack, I expect anyone with a job to work hard, not just the employees of my Rugby Team. Just because at one point we had a fantastic set of forwards & dominated nearly ever other team that isn't necessarily what all Tigers Supporters see as our DNA & I am not entirely convinced our HC realises that.
But credit for doing the Interview as he obviously isn't comfortable with that aspect of his role, but there were parts where the mask slipped a little with his interactions with Bondi, it was a shame laddergate wasn't bought up.
My bold. You are not comparing similar situations, In the real world, permanent contracts are generally open ended, so the sack is the only way to get rid of them. In football, where contracts are often 3-5 years, players get stuck on the transfer list. In Rugby Union, contracts tend to be for 1-2 years, so it is often a simple matter of waiting until the contract expires and not renewing it. Or, a more recent phenomenon, telling the player that they can leave by 'mutual consent' (Cips at Gloucs, for example).

TigerBoy1880
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:14 am

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:48 am
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
An interesting interview, the obsession with hard work is mildly annoying, playing rugby is their job, professional sport is a profession where your workers can not be putting in the graft, yet you rarely sack them as you would in the real world, the boss gets the sack, I expect anyone with a job to work hard, not just the employees of my Rugby Team. Just because at one point we had a fantastic set of forwards & dominated nearly ever other team that isn't necessarily what all Tigers Supporters see as our DNA & I am not entirely convinced our HC realises that.
But credit for doing the Interview as he obviously isn't comfortable with that aspect of his role, but there were parts where the mask slipped a little with his interactions with Bondi, it was a shame laddergate wasn't bought up.
My bold. You are not comparing similar situations, In the real world, permanent contracts are generally open ended, so the sack is the only way to get rid of them. In football, where contracts are often 3-5 years, players get stuck on the transfer list. In Rugby Union, contracts tend to be for 1-2 years, so it is often a simple matter of waiting until the contract expires and not renewing it. Or, a more recent phenomenon, telling the player that they can leave by 'mutual consent' (Cips at Gloucs, for example).
Also, you can’t just get sacked for lack of hard work in the real world. There would need to be a lot of documented conversations, action plans and support offered before sacking someone. In fact, does one get sacked nowadays for lack of hard work?!

ourla
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by ourla » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:32 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
An interesting interview, the obsession with hard work is mildly annoying, playing rugby is their job, professional sport is a profession where your workers can not be putting in the graft, yet you rarely sack them as you would in the real world, the boss gets the sack, I expect anyone with a job to work hard, not just the employees of my Rugby Team.
It's easy to get comfortable and let standards slip. And ultimately if that happens it's down to the HC. And because of that IMO the HC should always have the last say on who is their squad. Hence I'm comfortable with the Hardwick situation for example. The HC should go if they allow the standards to slip on a broader basis.
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
Just because at one point we had a fantastic set of forwards & dominated nearly ever other team that isn't necessarily what all Tigers Supporters see as our DNA & I am not entirely convinced our HC realises that.
I don't think any team can succeed, certainly not at the highest level on a regular basis, without being very good in all aspects of the game. That said your back line is not going to function without the foundation at set piece and some front foot ball. Yes, individual moments of brilliance can get you out the doo doo but that's never going to be enough in the long run. I don't really buy all this DNA stuff. The game moves on a little, time and people certainly do. The history, the ground, the supporters provide the bedrock but as the old saying goes the current squad, coaches, management have to create their own history.
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by BFG » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 am

Coaches get sacked for consistent poor performance, so why shouldn't players be similarly accountable?
Working hard usually increases performance, where possible the two are related in some way.

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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by TigerFeetSteve » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:45 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
But credit for doing the Interview as he obviously isn't comfortable with that aspect of his role, but there were parts where the mask slipped a little with his interactions with Bondi, it was a shame laddergate wasn't bought up.
Given how laddergate was used as a joke in episode 1, I don't think it's a source of friction between the two, personally I didn't see and "mask slipping" in there, he's a serious focused individual, so obviously it was Bondi who was the main source in the interview for levity, but he made a few quips. Was interesting to hear how he saw Schalk Brits as both a joker and a hard worker shows he has gained an understanding of different personality types and sounds like he has the club driving in a direction together.

He also made very clear in the interview how he saw Bondi's dedication to the club, which given how much banter that he gets involved in (as it's his job) is good to see that he really appreciates those around him efforts.
Used to run around with an 11, 14 or 15 on my back.

ourla
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by ourla » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:16 am

BFG wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:42 am
Coaches get sacked for consistent poor performance, so why shouldn't players be similarly accountable?
They are ultimately.

But bear in mind that all players either come through our academy or are signed by us - so in some ways if we subsequently move them on it's an admission of failure on our part.

And also, it's often not that simple. There are lot of things that can impact performance. And things are rarely consistent.
You're either in or you're out

mol2
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by mol2 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:36 am

I wouldn't say that an academy player not making the senior squad is a failure. The academy covers a fairly limited age range, where the first team squad are the best players aged between 20 and 35 ish.

So it is enevitable that only a proportion of the Academy will become first team regulars - perhaps 1 in 5 or even less.

Those that we lose a small number will find a niche and go on to the very top level elsewhere and others will perhaps play down a level or two or simply go to University or other jobs and play at club level.

Look on it as a pyramid with only a few reaching the top. What should cause concern is us losing players to other Premiership sides because they feel they haven't been given a fair chance. Those are few and the current coaches seem quite happy to give youngsters a chance so likely to be fewer.

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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by Noggs » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:50 am

SB has brought insight, focus and leadership to the club and is clearly taking the players with him on the journey. It is also very clear that those not wishing to travel in the defined direction and put in the work required will be and have been quickly shown the door. The only way is up!
Life can be unpredictable, so eat your pudding first!

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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by Traveller » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:53 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
An interesting interview, the obsession with hard work is mildly annoying, playing rugby is their job, professional sport is a profession where your workers can not be putting in the graft, yet you rarely sack them as you would in the real world, the boss gets the sack, I expect anyone with a job to work hard, not just the employees of my Rugby Team. Just because at one point we had a fantastic set of forwards & dominated nearly ever other team that isn't necessarily what all Tigers Supporters see as our DNA & I am not entirely convinced our HC realises that.
But credit for doing the Interview as he obviously isn't comfortable with that aspect of his role, but there were parts where the mask slipped a little with his interactions with Bondi, it was a shame laddergate wasn't bought up.
He was asked what he meant by 'hard work' and he described an environment where everyone is desperate to improve, every minute of every day. Not that people simply do lots of tackles or arrive on time. That is what he defines as hard work, and judging by the players that have worked with him, and spoken out about how highly they respect him, it seems that he does know how to develop that sort of culture. IMHO I think he is spot on when he refers to Tigers being a team that 'doesn't go away'. That is what I have loved about Tigers over the years, not the fact that we have won a lot of silverware. But in the last three / four years we did 'go away' and it was embarrassing. Hence I think he is absolutely right about the conditional support. I will support Tigers as long as they battle in every game for every minute. Irrespective of the eventual score.

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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by johnthegriff » Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:57 am

We all know that in a business, a factory or an office there are some who put in a bit more effort than others and some who just coast doing enough to retain their jobs but not really pushing themselves. In sport the differences are probably less obvious to the watching non expert fan but those differences can be the margin between winning and losing. At our training ground there used to be painted in big letters on the outside of the gymnasium building the phrase " Welcome to work", after Cocker was sacked this was painted out and that action possibly summed up a change in attitude and performance. I think that we might be returning to work ethic that was formerly in place. In a match situation I am sure our players have put in the best effort they were capable of over the years but I am not so certain that some always gave of their best on the training ground and consequently had a little less to give on match day.
As far as the Academy is concerned I doubt that more than one in ten make it to a full time professional career, whether they are retained by us may well be influenced by the players in their position ahead of them and a move to a club where they get more game time is necessary for them to develop. It is not a failure of Tigers if an academy player does not make the grade, the coaches job is to make the young guys the best they can be, for most that will not be good enough for the Premiership, some will need more time than others and have to move on to give younger players their chance but a few years later having played at a lower level they have developed into useful squad players like Green and Clare or of those at other clubs, Purdy , Steele and Lewington.

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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by ourla » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:12 pm

mol2 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:36 am
I wouldn't say that an academy player not making the senior squad is a failure.
I was referring to players that do make the senior squad but then subsequently we ditch.
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LE18
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by LE18 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:33 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:57 am
We all know that in a business, a factory or an office there are some who put in a bit more effort than others and some who just coast doing enough to retain their jobs but not really pushing themselves. In sport the differences are probably less obvious to the watching non expert fan but those differences can be the margin between winning and losing. At our training ground there used to be painted in big letters on the outside of the gymnasium building the phrase " Welcome to work", after Cocker was sacked this was painted out and that action possibly summed up a change in attitude and performance. I think that we might be returning to work ethic that was formerly in place. In a match situation I am sure our players have put in the best effort they were capable of over the years but I am not so certain that some always gave of their best on the training ground and consequently had a little less to give on match day.
As far as the Academy is concerned I doubt that more than one in ten make it to a full time professional career, whether they are retained by us may well be influenced by the players in their position ahead of them and a move to a club where they get more game time is necessary for them to develop. It is not a failure of Tigers if an academy player does not make the grade, the coaches job is to make the young guys the best they can be, for most that will not be good enough for the Premiership, some will need more time than others and have to move on to give younger players their chance but a few years later having played at a lower level they have developed into useful squad players like Green and Clare or of those at other clubs, Purdy , Steele and Lewington.
I was going to mention the Welcome to Work sign, but you beat me to it. I was not aware that it had been painted out though, guess its because we downsized and moved.
Regarding the Academy, the youngsters are selected at a very young age, coaches don't have a crystal ball and cannot be certain that a youngster will finally make it, some maybe boarder line cases who may make it, but an Academy has to have sufficient numbers to be worthwhile and hopefully give any borderline cases their chance. So there will always be leavers.

Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:44 pm

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:41 am
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
An interesting interview, the obsession with hard work is mildly annoying, playing rugby is their job, professional sport is a profession where your workers can not be putting in the graft, yet you rarely sack them as you would in the real world, the boss gets the sack, I expect anyone with a job to work hard, not just the employees of my Rugby Team. Just because at one point we had a fantastic set of forwards & dominated nearly ever other team that isn't necessarily what all Tigers Supporters see as our DNA & I am not entirely convinced our HC realises that.
But credit for doing the Interview as he obviously isn't comfortable with that aspect of his role, but there were parts where the mask slipped a little with his interactions with Bondi, it was a shame laddergate wasn't bought up.
What do you see as our DNA then?
I started watching Tigers when we got the ball out to the backs & Underwood & Evans used to make their opponents look silly, as the pack got better the 2 half if the team got molded together, Deano & Paddys teams played 15 man Rugby, without a coherent set of backs we wouldn't of won the 2 European Cups.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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Re: Re-Shaping Leicester Tigers

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:22 pm

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:44 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:41 am
Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:26 am
An interesting interview, the obsession with hard work is mildly annoying, playing rugby is their job, professional sport is a profession where your workers can not be putting in the graft, yet you rarely sack them as you would in the real world, the boss gets the sack, I expect anyone with a job to work hard, not just the employees of my Rugby Team. Just because at one point we had a fantastic set of forwards & dominated nearly ever other team that isn't necessarily what all Tigers Supporters see as our DNA & I am not entirely convinced our HC realises that.
But credit for doing the Interview as he obviously isn't comfortable with that aspect of his role, but there were parts where the mask slipped a little with his interactions with Bondi, it was a shame laddergate wasn't bought up.
What do you see as our DNA then?
I started watching Tigers when we got the ball out to the backs & Underwood & Evans used to make their opponents look silly, as the pack got better the 2 half if the team got molded together, Deano & Paddys teams played 15 man Rugby, without a coherent set of backs we wouldn't of won the 2 European Cups.
15 man rugby = win the battle up front to ensure quick ball and gaps in opposition back line then release the ball to the backs. Biggest problem we ever had was the stupid change in the maul law whereby you could drive a maul forward for 20 metres and just because it somehow collapsed you lost the put in at the scrum. Any maul that travels more than 10 metres will realistically only collapse through the defence either falling over or deliberately bring it to ground either way it should be a penalty

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